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[nemue]

Hi, my husband and I just adopted two new chins about a month ago, and I"m having problems finding answers to my questions.  We have two girls named Kira and Mononoke.

I wasn't able to get the girls from a breeder, as it's not common here (it's very cold most of the year as we're in the Rocky mountains) and the only breeder we knew about had to put them all down due to illness.  We ended up getting them from a pet store, and they couldn't even tell us how old they were!  I was a little disconcerted, as I knew more than them about chinchillas, and I'd just read everything I could get my hands on, and never had one.  I was a little weary about getting them from the store, but I'd wanted them for a long time and there was no where else to get them.  I'm afraid of taking them to the vet, as this will frighten them and turn them off us even more.

I've been really careful with how to handle them, but I think Kira (and maybe both of them) had a bad experience before coming here.  Since day one, Kira will bite if we go near her, especially if she's in the cage.  I do not grab her or touch her while she's in there, as I understand that's her safe place.  At first i was doing what all the sites suggest, giving them treats through the bars,and then trying to touch them through the bars, but that is definitely not what they like.  Kira will bite every time.  Mononoke is a little different, more just shy, but I think influenced by Kira. 

We do let them out every night.  We didn't have much choice in this.  Everything I read said they will need to get to know us first, but Kira pushes her way out of the cage, since maybe day 3, and once I didn't have time to let her out in the evening and she was really mad.  We keep them in the one room (I don't want them to leave there until they are more used to us), but Kira spends her whole time trying to get out (which she has succeeded at many times).  She can open the door, and understands how door knobs work, so we keep a heavy weight in front of the door.  I cannot touch her, and at the end of the night, I wait for her to go home, then get Mononoke in with a treat. 

I'm just not sure what to do about Kira's aggressive behaviour.  I get bitten a lot, and I"m being gentle.  Mostly it's when I'm trying to put the food in the cage, or stopping her from chewing the door (I don't really touch her any other time as she doesn't like this).  They don't mind jumping on us, and getting treats, or using our shoulders to access the door knob....  Is this normal, will she eventually get used to us?

Every night I lay on the floor with treats, as i know this is less intimidating, and they look forward to this time, and often sit on my face and chest.

The other thing I don't know, is if she is unhappy about our cats.  We have two, and they are very interested in the chins.  They met once by accident.  I left the cage door open one night by accident, which would have been ok if Kira didn't know how to open doors.... I thought i was going to find dead chinchillas, but they actually put the cats into submission.  I still think this was traumatic for them, and we try to keep the cats away from them.  I don't think it changed kira's behaviour for the worse, but maybe it didn't help?

Does any one have any suggestions on what can help to win the chins over?  Have I done everything right?  Am I just being impatient and they need more time?  I would think that if Kira wasn't so aggressive!  Anything you can suggest will help!

[ChinchillAZ]

I don't know what kind of doors you have that your chinchillas can open, but...  That could be a very big problem for you.  Even if my chinchillas could reach the door knobs with a jump, they couldn't twist it to open it and they certainly couldn't pull it when it weighs SO much more than they do...   

Unfortunately, some chinchillas are biters.  It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with having a bad experience.  (Which isn't to say that your chin hasn't experienced something bad...  I'm just saying it isn't necessarily fact.)  In the 5+ years I've been breeding chinchillas, I've had ONE chinchilla born here who just thought that biting was one of the best things ever.  He wasn't nearly as aggressive as your girl and didn't bite me every chance he got, but he would bite when the mood struck him.  The trick was to find out how to get him to stop.  In his case, he liked it when I blew in his face, so that didn't work.  Saying "NO!" loudly and firmly didn't phase him, as I was pulling my hand away and essentially giving him what he wanted.  I had to wear thick gloves and let him bite without pulling away while saying, "NO!" loudly and firmly... And this started to work.  This may be something that you can try with your girl.

I would suggest finding a way to prevent her from getting out of the cage until YOU are ready for her to be out, which I wouldn't recommend doing until you've bonded with her more and she isn't biting you whenever you reach into her cage.  This will take time and a LOT of patience on your part...  It may end up being a battle that you never win, unfortunately.  Not all animals can be "tamed."

[nemue]

thanks for the advice.  Our house is old, and the doors are hollow and very light.  Unfortunately, the house has shifted and the door doesn't latch properly.  This is how she is getting it open, she pulls from underneath and it pops open.  She also, obviously understands how door knobs works and jumps up there about 10-15 times a night.  She can also get the closet door open by pushing it and it just slides open.  She's obsessed with these doors and that's all she does.

I have concerns with reprimanding her for biting, as everywhere I read it says you can frighten them and then they won't trust you.  I will try the glove thing though, and maybe she won't bite when I feed her any more!  It makes sense that if she learns that biting will get me to go away, so if I wear gloves she won't put those two together.

My only concern without letting her out is exercise.  It was VERY difficult for me to find one (I went to 7 different pet stores who all had chins and NO wheels).  Finally my sister found one where she lives, but I'm still waiting for her to send it to me!  If I keep them locked up, will they suffer because of this?  And how long should I keep them in the cage before I deem them (or just Kira) as being untamable?  I would like to at least get the point where I can pick them up, so that then I can put them back in the cage and just not wait.

the other problem with not letting them out, is that Kira is VERY forceful.  That's why we started letting them out in the first place, although everything we had read said not to.  She is waiting and bites and sneaks her way out.  Once she's out there's nothing I can do, I once tried to pick her up and she gave the danger/anger sounds so I left her.  I can pick up M'noke but she doesn't like it, she squirms.  I think she's affected by Kira's attitude, as I can pet her a bit, and then it's like she realizes she shouldn't be liking it.

Should I just let M'noke out and leave Kira in the cage until she comes around?

[nemue]

Ok,so I followed your advice tonight, and I'm a bit distressed.  I think I need to hear that this will get better, as I don't know what to do. 

I kept the girls in, and fed them with gloves on.  They fight over their food, and Kira sits on it so M'noke can't get any, so I started feeding them pellets through the bars so that we had contact.  They loved this, and were both eager.  I thought we were making some headway. 

I then put my hands in, palms up so it wasn't as threatening to see what would happen.  M'noke let me stroke her a few times, and then she hopped up my hand and arm and got out.  I didn't mind too much as I thought this was a break through with her.  I think she's influenced too much by Kira.  I kept Kira in the cage, and tried to have contact with her.  She bit me three times, and the third time I know she would have broken skin if I wasn't wearing gloves.  She was very upset that M'noke was out and she started ratteling the door.  I blew on her every time she bit me, and she sulked for a few minutes and then came back, and I think that's why she bit me harder each time.  I will try to keep them both in next time, but I feel distressed.  Am I fighting a losing battle?  Or is she like a bratty kid and just needs to learn a few lessons? 

I believe that when you bring animals into a house it's a life-time commitment, like having kids.  And you don't walk away from that.  I've had struggles with my cats, and dogs in the past and never felt this distressed, I guess because I got love back even though there were problems.  But if she's never going to like me, and be aggressive, I will have troubles adjusting to that and living with it for the next 15 years.  I can't imagine what would happen to her if I gave her up anyway, and I don't want to do that, I know that I have more patience with creatures than a lot of other people do, so I don't think there's hope for her anywhere else, making me feel I need to do everything in my power to make this work.  But I think I need to know it will get better.   

   Should I just keep trugging along as I am? 

[Abby W.]

If they are fighting over the food, try two bowls in opposite corners of the cage.  Pick one chin up and place a bowl in the cage.  Once one chin has turned attention to that bowl, place the other bowl in and set the second chin in front of it.

As for the biting, it sounds to me like your poor chinnie hasn't been handled very much in her life, or has been handled roughly (not by you).  Try just sitting by the cage for periods of time and talking to her.  Once she seems ok with that, you can open the cage door and just let them get used to you having access to their space.  Then try placing one hand in the cage, then both, etc.  The key here is everything must be done gently and gradually.  I am glad to hear you have a lot of patience.  It can take a LOOOOONG time to gain trust from a chin who has been mistreated.  I had a girl who was from a similar situation as yours and it took me over a year to get her to be ok with me scratching her or picking her up for small periods of time.

If Mononoke is ok climbing on you, I would allow that, even if it upsets Kira.  Eventually, Kira will get used to that happening and it may help her to trust you as well.

I hope this is helpful.  Just be patient and persistent and Kira should come around eventually.  Good luck!

[nemue]

I never thought of the two bowl thing, what a novel idea!  That will sure help.

I had a sleepless night thinking about Kira, and I just don't think I can give her back.  The pet store said they'd take her back or exchange her, but I don't want to do that to her.  Poor thing, if she was treated badly, it's not her fault, nor if she was never handled.  There's a lady I can speak to at the pet store that's in tomorrow, and she will be able to help me with Kira's history, hopefully, which I was never able to get when I adopted her. 

Does anyone think that separating them will help?  Different cages, different rooms?  Or should I just keep working on them, and hope that M'noke's progress affects Kira?   

Thanks everyone for your help, if you have anything new let me know.  I'll trudge along for another year with her, and it will be that much rewarding when she does eventually like me! 

[Jenova]

If they get along, keep them together, but if they are going to hurt each other separate them. It's your call. Time and patience will help with Kira. Try yelping when she bites you. Yelp like a chinchilla to show her it's hurting you. If I tell mine 'no' it only makes them want to do it more because they know it's wrong and they love being naughty.

Don't give up, you've hardly had them any time at all and some chins take longer than others to come round. It's harder with two because if one is more loving towards you your natural instinct is to give that one more attention, but you need to treat them equally or I'm sure they'll get jealous. You may have them for twenty years, that's plenty of time to work things out. You seem to be doing all the right things and I'm sure the people here will give you plenty of good information. Good luck.

[nemue]

It's been day three with trying with Kira.  She's getting pretty mad at me becuase she can't come out of the cage.  I talk to them both in the beginning before I feed them, and ask how their day was etc., so I try to give them both equal attention.  Then I feed them, and I'm using two bowls on different levels.  Kira tries to get at them both, but M'noke jsut goes to the other one.  If I place my hand on the outside of the cage, Kira will just sniff it, and i often go close with me face and she sniffs.  But if my fingers go any bit past the bars, she bites.  I have been blowing on her, and that helps.  She hates it, the first night she sulked adn had fits, but I think she's starting to catch on.  I figure either she'll stop biting, or she'll get used to it and I'll have to try something else. 

M'noke is coming out of the cage.  I told them both the rules are they have to be nice to me (no biting) and to come out they have to hop on my hand.  M'noke is fine with that!  She doesn't let me hold her for long, mostly it's if she's eating a treat, then when she's done she hops away,  but I don't mind being used in this way!  Kira gets mad and gets on her hind legs and shakes the cage door.  I talk to her and tell her she has to be nice or she's staying in there.  She gets pretty angery adn her biting gets worse around this time.

The pet store said that if I decide it's too much they find foster homes for troubled animals until they're ready to be adopted out.  I think for now Kira just needs some love, and I know another move will not help her.

[rodafer]

Please try and stick it out. It breaks my heart to think she will have to move to another home! My chin was almost the same way and I never gave up on her. Now she is with me at all times when I am home. I can just imagine your chin shaking the door and it makes me so sad. I am such a sucker. But they are not for entertainment, so remember she may never be as "cuddly" as you would like.

[nemue]

I'm ok if they'll never be cuddly.  I just want them to be happy.  If she stays this miserable it might not be a choice I have.  I know I won't win her over right away, but would you say that there's a time limit where I would know if it's going to happen at all?  Like if in three months she still is this unhappy, should I go no further? 

I'm not one to give up on little guys, my cat was and is a little brat.  She has issues with peeing when she's mad, or when we move.  I understand her distress, and have been very offended when people have said I should give her up or put her down.  She's my baby, and I could never do that.  But I also know there's love there with her, and with a chin who's so angry, wouldn't there be a possibility that she would just stay angry? 

I've been pretty broken up about the fact that I've even thought of giving her up, I've had some sleepless nights and tearful conversations with my mom (who shares this belief about responsibility and these poor creatures we put through so much trauma).  For my own sake, and Kira's I want to try everything I can.  It's not fair to her to be brought into this "Petland" world where she's shipped around all the time. 

I might be done my long posts by the end of this week, but, as I'm sure you all know, not everyone understands these dilemas.  mOst people think I should just give her up and not add the stress to my life.  But then, what about her life and her stress?

Anyway.  Thanks for the support, I will need more of it in the next months/year!

[rodafer]

It is very common for new chins in new homes to take up to 6 months to warm up. So I would go with that number. 6 months may seem long, as it did to me, but it went really fast. And for us, it was almost exactly 6 months.

[Leslie]

I just posted in the thread about Kira's biting but I think I'll post here too!

A few things:

I'm in Canada too, in Winnipeg, and it's hard to get chinchilla stuff here.  I order almost everything online (everything except for the pine shavings).  You can buy an awesome wheel online, the flying saucer wheel.  It's expensive but soooo worth it, it's the best wheel of all.  I guess you'll have to see the other one that someone is sending you and see if that works.  Please just make sure it's not plastic and that it doesn't have cross bars.

I'd recommend you buy an exercise pen.  Again, I bought mine online but it wasn't too bad for the shipping.  And it was so worth it!  You won't have to worry about them opening doors or getting into trouble.  It's made up of wire panels that are attached but they fold up for easy storage.  This saved my life!  Also, it sounds like this hyper chin is getting more hyper from having the option to be bad and be scolded.  They think it's a game sometimes.  Also, my crazy chin used to do things obsessively as well, jumping up over and over and over again, or chewing at something incessantly.....a play pen will solve that too.  If she tries to jump out of the playpen, you can just put a fitted sheet over the top and she won't be able to jump out.

I wouldn't let them get out of the cage on their own.  Too much chance for escape.  They will learn not to jump out over time, if you stop letting them.  I mentioned in my other post the cages are best up off the floor, so they should be coming out into your arms only.

You really have your hands full with two of them, hey!  Wow what a lot of work.  To me it sounds like separating them might be a good idea, but I have never had two in one cage before.  It just seems like that one needs some extra TLC until she calms down.

Oh and I got my first guy from a pet store and he was exactly the same as what you are describing.  Right to the T.  I have always blamed it on the pet store, cause my second chin was totally different and he was from a breeder.  The pet store chin took a lot of work to calm down, but when you see progress, you'll know it, and it'll feel very rewarding.  Keep at it, it sounds like you're doing an awesome job so far.  Better than pretty much anyone else could or would....so giving her up to someone else probably wouldn't help.  Someone on this site once said she had an aggressive chin that she had to just buy a giant cage for and a wheel and not let out for exercise time. That's fine in the end too, you know.

Here's the link for the playpens (yes it's a ferret site but they work for chins too!)
Play Pen

Here's a link to where I bought my cages from, prices are great and shipping was decent....in case you end up needing another....
Wonderful big cages

[ChillinChinchillas]

I don't think in this situation, two cages would be such a bad idea. You could put them side by side so they are still close to each other. This I think would let the less dominant one not be so influenced. She could feel comfortable eating without a fuss, and with her interaction with you. This would also allow the more dominant one to see how non-threatening you are without interfering with a growing relationship you might be building.

I don't know how long you have had the chins, but it took almost a full year for my pet store chin to finally fully trust me. I promise that it is one of the most rewarding experiences to take a chin that may not have had the best experience and show them a loving home. When they finally warm up to you, it make the hard work all worth it!

I would only suggest taking her back to the pet store only if you don't have the time to invest. I can guarantee that you would treat her better than the pet store. You seem as if you truly care, and for that she is truly lucky. Someone else might have taken her home and mistreated an animal because it bit him/her repeatedly. Everything happens for a reason!!!!

The best of luck to you!

[ChinchillAZ]

When you're talking about a "time limit" on when you need to "give up," and people are saying 6 months or a year, I think we all need to keep in mind that even a SMALL amount of progress is progress!  This is why patience is SO important.  (I'm not saying you aren't patient.  I'm just reintegrating a fact.)  It's hard to see small progress when you're in the eye of the storm, so to speak.  The fact that you can put your hand and face near the cage and she isn't trying to bite you through the bars is actually progress!  The fact that she stops biting when you blow on her is actually progress!  There have been small victories here and I don't want you to lose sight of that!

I let people who buy chinchillas from me know that they really should not be taken out of the cage for up to two weeks after they get to their new home, as they need this time to settle in and adjust to their new environment.  You've had these girls for a good amount of time, but Kira may take a bit longer to adjust.  (After all, two weeks is a guideline and more of an average.  If some chins are adjusted and ready to go in 24 hours, clearly there are much longer periods of time to get a two week average.)  And this time is just to adjust to their new surroundings.  It says nothing about how long it will take them to adjust to you.  For that, I would say that the way that she will interact with you for the remainder of her life will probably be pretty solid after about two years.  After two years, she's unlikely to start acting much differently towards you.  But chinchillas do tend to "mellow" a little as they get older.  The way a chinchilla acts at 6 months to a year (when they're essentially going through puberty) isn't necessarily the same as they will act when they are a bit older.

IF you elect to separate them, you need to be prepared that they may never be able to be housed together again.  As long as you're aware of this and willing to accept having two cages with two chinchillas that need to be kept apart at all times, then you may want to try separating them.  I personally don't think that you need to do this, but it is an option you haven't tried.

[BrightEyed]

I agree with ChinchillAZ. Good luck with it all.