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[Jo Ann]

Hi OutbackChin, great to see you back on the forum ... you've been gone to long! 

Hi ChinchillaGrl06, Yep, mother nature can most definitely pull out total surprises!  Let's hope this is one of them for Rebekkah.
6 kits in one litter ... that is a big litter.  But, I do hear of some breeders that do have them that large.  Did they all make it?  Are litters that large normal for her chins?

 
Jo Ann 

[chinchillagrl06]

Hi OutbackChin, great to see you back on the forum ... you've been gone to long! 

Hi ChinchillaGrl06, Yep, mother nature can most definitely pull out total surprises!  Let's hope this is one of them for Rebekkah.
6 kits in one litter ... that is a big litter.  But, I do hear of some breeders that do have them that large.  Did they all make it?  Are litters that large normal for her chins?

 
Jo Ann 

Now that I'm reading more carefully the link I posted. That is actually not the one I was thinking of. Susan had a rescue deliver 6 live kits and 1 mummified kit 7 total! I don't know how the mom could even move. I think 5/6 living kits survived. I'll ask her for an update.

[chinclub]

How is she doing today? Did you go for the x-ray?  Watch closely for any signs of illness at all, watery eyes, labored breathing, coughing...  If she trys to reabsorb a baby of that size she will very likely become septic.  If this happens she will die.  The antibiotics are good to try to ward that off but if she doesn't abort the baby she will have some problems.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

That almost sounds like a previous pregnancy that failed to deliver or abort, with the formed bones, limbs and fur still there and the internal organs gone.  But, it could have been superfoetation, I guess

Ever see what poision does to a mouse? Kind of dries it up and leaves the other shell.
That's what I felt it was like at the time.
Jo Ann she did deliver on her due date, her second or 3 litter I believe, it was the only pair I had at the time. It came after the kits, and I first misstook it for the after birth.
A clump in a dark corner on the floor of the cage.When she expelled a smaller clump I took it out to investagate. By this time it had dried some, but yes it was in a sack slightly torn up, so I just pealed it back and could see the full figure of a kit. Dry as a bone, and just like all the insides had been sucked out of it. It seemed perfectly formed.
It was the only set of triplets from this pair ever, I just figured something was wrong with the 3d and mother nature took care of it, or it was to much for the dame in question.
The reason I'll never know, but believe it to be from the same litter.
I was on chin Singapore at the time with Betti C. and Chinster, they told me what it was, and what they knew about it at the time. Geez must have been 2000 ,maybe 2001.
I have never seen anything like it sense.


Yes fill us in, what did the xray show, we're all on pins and needles now

[Abby W.]

Today I took Rebekkah to the vet for an X-ray and foudn two kits.  Both were unfortunately positioned for a breach birth.  That combined with the discharge we were seeing led the vet to do a C-section.  At about 4:30 this afternoon the vet helped Rebekkah deliver two beautiful LIVE kits!  They are a bit smaller than I would like but still not too underweight, 36 and 43 grams, a sapphire and a black velvet.  Mom seems to be doing beautifully, though she was understandably freaked out when I met her back at the vet's office.  She doesn't have milk yet, the vet gave her a shot of oxytocin to stimulate production.  Because of the kits' weights I am going to hand feed them for a few days until momma's milk comes in.  At first she didnt accept them and just stepped all over them, but after I got her calmed down a bit I replaced them and she at least let them lay under her.  So we are all exhausted from a nerve-wracking day, but very hopeful for the future.  Thanks so much for all the support you guys have given me!  I am so glad I could report a happy ending to you all.

P.S. When the vet went into the uterus she found that the placental sacs had begun to tear away from the uterine wall, causing some bleeding and a (luckily) mild uterine infection.  Antibiotics rest and supplements ought to have all three as good as new. 

[Debbie.nl.ca]

Way to go, ::wub::I'm so relieved, can't wait for the pics

Yes what a day.
So the vet felt they were full term?

[Abby W.]

They were not full term but darn close.  They are fully formed but their eyes are closed and they are unsteady on their feet.  They will require some supplemental feeding and extra care for a little while, but should do just fine, barring any more complications.  I do have a slight problem that I could use some help with, and that is Rebekkah is only attentive to them on an irregular basis.  She has on several occassions allowed them to lay under her and try to nurse but then other times she has just tramped on them and ignored them.   I don't know what to do to get her to act like a normal chin mom.  I have been removing them from the cage when it seems like she's getting too excited, but I don't know if that is maybe making it harder for her  to get used to them.   Any ideas?

[Chins To Love]

Hi Abigail,
Princess had a c-section not to long ago and is doing great now. I did have to foster her live kit out to another mom and it has done really well, it is going to its new home in early Sept. Unfortunately the other one was dead inside of Princess.
As for milk production, if this ever happens again, ask the vet for the placenta, it is very important for mom to eat it to get her milk going.  At this point I would get some Fenugreek ( it is a herb sold at health stores it will bring milk in right now . Sprinkle some on her feed, mine loved it when I used it, and just like in humans when she has enough in her system she will start smelling like maple syrup.  (when la leche told me I would smell like maple syrup I thought they were kidding, but man did I, and thank god my milk came in, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to nurse my youngest son.) It works just as well for chins, and is just as safe.
Good luck, and keep us posted as to how they are all doing.

[Abby W.]

Julianne,

Thanks I will try the herbal route.  I should have thought about the placenta.  Honestly I was just so  relieved that she came through the surgery alright, and with BOTH kits alive and well no less, it just didn't even cross my mind.  I have been giving her 1/2 cranberry and 1/2 water, which she loves.  As soon as we got home and I set her up in a temporary cage she gulped down a bunch of it.  She seems to be gradually letting the kits nurse from her, though I don't think she is yet producing any milk.  I have been feeding them a mixture of canned goat's milk, water, some nutri-cal, and some baby rice cereal every hour to keep their little tummies full.    Hopefully, this will all be enough to tide them over until mom is producing milk and has settled into her new role.  I will post pics for everyone in a few days.  Thanks!

[Summer]

I am glad the kits and mama chin are doing good. Not to many people would have done what was necessary to ensure a safe out come. 

[outbackchin]

Abby, what a wonderful update...I thought of Rebekkah all night and hoped all had went well!  Congrats on your new additions
Is it possible that you could maybe put one kit with another one of your nursing moms (one of them did only have one kit, right?)  That way Rebekkah would only have one kit to take care of and maybe it won't be so overwhelming for her.  Just a thought (also might help you not have to hand feed both of them).
Also, Rebekkah might calm down and be a great mom in a few days...she has had a rough couple of days and I am sure I would be freaked out to have two kits pawing at me to get attention and milk.  Now that she is home, hopefully she will calm down.
Good luck and if you need anything, just let me know

[Jo Ann]

Fantastic!

Mother nature needed some outside help and you got it for her!

In a breach position, they could not have made it on their own.

They are God's little miracles.

The birthweights are a little low, but acceptable ... especially under the circumstances! 

the vet went into the uterus she found that the placental sacs had begun to tear away from the uterine wall

Did she find a dead kit also, or was it the placental sacs tearing away from the uterine wall that caused the previous bleeding?

 
Jo Ann

[Abby W.]

No there were just the two kits.  Prior to the surgery we were sure that one was dead and one was alive.  I had felt kicking and movement in the womb, but then with the discharge we were sure that the other had died and was polluting her system.  You can imagine the jig dance I did when the vet called to tell me both kits were alive and healthy!  Their eyes are not open yet, I dont know if that is just because they are slightly premature or if I should try to open them.  I will give them a few days or so and see if they open on their own, if not I guess I will go with the warm damp cloth and gentle prying.  Unfortunately, Rebekkah managed to open one of her sutures overnight, so I running her back to the vet's office (again) to get that fixed this morning.  The kits have both lost a little weight which concerns me.  I will be stepping up the amount of formula they are getting and hopefully they will get moving in the right direction.

[Jo Ann]

Hi Abby,
    It is normal for the kits to loose just a little weight the first day, but getting it back up is very important.  As long as they do not continue to loose weight.  Formula is good if that is all you have, but you do have two more nursing females.  Chinchilla milk would be the best chance for them, hopefully one of the other moms will allow them to nurse.
     Normally, if I have to foster one out, I put it with the natural kit/kits for a few minutes to get the scents crossed between them so mom will more readily accept the foster kit(s).
    The one you have that has two kits, Cybil, that are scrappers, you might want to take them out and put the new kit/kits in for a few minutes several times a day in addition to the formula feedings.
    Jamie only had one kit, if she will accept them you might try with her occasionally ... again removing her own several times a day, if she has enough milk.

  Play Musical Kits until the new kits can match the size of the other kits and they can all be in at the same time.

   The moms will probably need a good calcium supplement if they take on more than their own and you might consider giving Ocean Spray Cranberry Juice (not cocktail) mixed 1/2 and 1/2 with water to stimulate fluid intake for the moms to be able to produce more milk. 
     It is not unusual for preemie kits to be born with the eyes closed, but you want to get them open within the first 24 hours.  I use a warm moist cloth and Neosporin (my good ole standby) and very gently pry them open. Keep checking to make sure they stay open.  If they are left closed, the eyes will atrophe and would have to be removed.   

 
Jo Ann

[Jo Ann]

Hi Abby,

How is the progress with Mom and kits?  :-[
No more stitches gone, I hope. 
Weight gain on the kits?

Were you able to foster them out? 
Who got them?  Cybil or Jamie? 

 
Jo Ann