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[dianah]

on the 6th of april, one of my 'male' chins gave birth to three gorgeous babies. we had no idea she was pregnant, or indeed a girl so chinchi (the dad) was in the same cage when she gave birth. we took him out as soon as we found the babies, he was neutered and unfortunately had complications and died three weeks ago after a surgery to remove a puss capsule 

fluffy - mom - had mastitis and we had to hand rear the babies for the first few weeks but they all pulled through and we now have two boys - spock & ffynn and a girlie - pippi, all hetero beige.

as we were aware that there was a possibility of her being pregnant again, i avoided picking her up to weigh her so the only way was for her to jump on the scale and weigh herself (we've got a big postal scale that's always set up) so the weight records are rather sporadic.

but, looking at these, do you think she is pregnant? she never lies on her side (didn't do it when she was pregnant the first time)

3 babies born on the 6th of april
20/04  690g
30/04  680g
10/05  667g
29/05  667g
10/06  chinchi died and fluffy refused to come out of her cage until a week later - i was worried about her as she didn't seem to eat much
13/06  2 boys separated, 1 girl stays with mum (the babies are nearly 10 weeks old now)
17/06  709g
19/06  715g
25/06  740g (80 days in if she's pregnant)
27/06  750g
30/06  767g

so she put on 100g in a month. could it just be post weaning gain or would that be rather a lot? her due date would be the 26th of july.

it's weird, for the first couple of months we were hoping she wasn't pregnant because breed back is not good for them but since chinchi died i keep thinking it would be nice to have more chinchi babies. we are keeping all the babies so as long as everyone's healthy, it would be ok.

what do you think? thank you!

[Crimson_Ham]

As she wasn't nursing the kits I don't think too many nutrients would be diverted if she was pregnant again. From what I understand that is the main issue with the female getting pregnant so soon... probably not the only issue but the biggest. I have no answers to your other questions though, Sorry. Hopefully someone with more knowledge and experience will come on soon and give you better answers.

[dianah]

thank you she actually did start nursing again after two or three weeks once her sore boob healed - the babies were biting trying to get milk when there was no milk coming out so she had cuts - poor little thing, that must have hurt quite a lot. she's such a good mum but at that point she was running away from them.
thankfully we managed to clear the mastitis within three days so she didn't have to have antibiotics.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

Females can die from breed backs. Usually one is handled, but repeated breed backs will deplete the mother nutrients.Her kits are like parasites and will take what they need to develop and/or while nursing.Both going on the same time can be so taxing for her that she becomes ill, and could die from complications.
Not a problem in this situation, and I would think things should go just fine.
I would how ever give mom extra calcium, & vit.c. Some will eat the tablets just as if they were treats. Or you can resort to hiding them in the treats, crushed.
Not sure a 100 grams is enough to say, but time will tell.

What is her normal weight before she got pregnant the last time?
Most will become larger after they are put into breeding.
We just never seem to loose all the baby fat from pregnancies.  

[dianah]

We just never seem to loose all the baby fat from pregnancies.

thank you debbie. please let me reassure you the breed back - or indeed the first pregnancy - was not intentional. i would have never willingly put her through that - although, of course, we do love the babies now they're here!

she does have a mineral stone in the cage but i've read 1/2 of fruit flavoured tums is recommended? would that be ok? she does get quite a lot of vitamin c as they get spinach (i know some people don't recommend fresh veggies but when i got chinchi, the vet recommended to give him fresh spinach or kale and i've done that without any problems).
she gets supreme science nuggets and oxbow hay, as well as oats twice a week.

unfortunately i have no idea what she weighed before she got pregnant - we used to weigh them only at the vets and she'd never been before she gave birth. we're weighing them regularly now.

[Jo Ann]

   I'm not familiar with the Supreme Science Nuggets ... could you provide a URL to it's site, please?

Mastitis can be very dangerous, I would be a bit leery of allowing her to breed again.  If it was something with her that caused it, it could reoccur.   If it was caused from damage from the kits, I would not be as concerned about it happening again.  It could have been caused by two kits fighting over the same tit, I have seen this happen and the mom lost the use of the tits on that side because of it.  (Chin moms have two completely separate sets of mammary glands.)  She did have a few litters after that, without issues.  Had I not know for sure it was due to the kits, I would not have allowed her to breed again.

Breedback can also be dangerous ... if the kits are still in the cage with her (especially if they are still trying to nurse), they need to be in their own cages.  From the time the kits started nursing her again, her "resources" were being divided between the litter she is carrying (if she is pregnant) and the litter she is nursing.  

WARNING:  If there are any male kits in the same cage as momma, they can get her pregnant.  A male kit has the ability to impregnate a female at the tender age of 10 weeks old.  Chinchillas will breed within the family.  A female kit has the ability to become pregnant as early as 3 1/2 months old, but it is doubtful she could carry them to term and she could/probably would die trying.   The kits born on April 6th are now 12 weeks old.  Kits should be weened at 6 weeks, no later than 7 weeks of age, unless there are special circumstances ... like they were born premature and are still very small.  

She could be pregnant, only time will tell.  If not by her hubby, who is now in chinnie heaven, maybe by a male kit of her own, if it is still housed in the same cage with her.

Another warning:  Spock and Ffynn need to be housed in two different cages.  Males have been known to fight to the death for the privilege of breeding a female that is in season ... even if they can not get to the female, they can/will still fight over her.

Pippi, the female can stay in the same cage with her mom, at least until the next litter is born, if there is one on the way.

chinchi (the dad) ... was neutered and unfortunately had complications and died three weeks ago after a surgery to remove a puss capsule  

This is the reason I always am against neutering, unless it is a case of life and death.

Cuttlebones (find them in the bird section of the pet store) are a better source of calcium or even calcium tablets are OK.  Keep in mind that for calcium to be properly delivered to the system and used, it needs to be in an acid environment ... Tums are antacids.

Small amounts of fresh veggies are OK, but only in small amounts and using those that do not cause gas, is very important to keep in mind.  For humans gas is very uncomfortable ... for chinchillas, it can be deadly.

Hope this helps with some of your questions.

   Jo Ann

[dianah]

thank you jo ann,

here's the supreme science link http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/pet-supplies/pet-food/specialist-pet-foods/supreme-science-selective-chinchilla-food-2k.html

she will not breed again - we had no intention of breeding her in the first place and the male kits have been separated from her at 9 weeks (would have done this sooner, however, ffynn didn't weigh enough) - the boys are currently housed together but will be separated when they reach 4 months as all the info i got re fighting was that it usually starts at 5 months onwards. they love each other at the moment and do everything together.

pippi is in with her mum and i intend to take her out 6 days before the due date.

unfortunately i had no option but to have chinchi neutered. he absolutely loved fluffy and he would not survived if i had to take him away from her. losing him was absolutely heartbreaking for me - still is - he was my first chin and until we got fluffy to be his friend, i was his mate. he would groom my face and was very affectionate but he didn't like anyone else. then we introduced him to fluffy (who we thought was a boy! she was sexed by two breeders) and all of his attention moved onto her - he didn't want me to stroke him anymore! he was very very happy with her and he missed her terribly when he had to be separated from her after the surgery.
i know you shouldn't have favourites, but he was mine.

tums, yes, they are antacids but that's because calcium carbonate is a basic salt which neutralises the stomach acid. the calcium carbonate is the only active ingredient in tums and is also the major inorganic cuttlefish constituent so it's pretty much the same stuff?

thanks again!

[Jo Ann]

  

tums, yes, they are antacids but that's because calcium carbonate is a basic salt which neutralises the stomach acid. the calcium carbonate is the only active ingredient in tums and is also the major inorganic cuttlefish constituent so it's pretty much the same stuff?

As a matter of fact ... I just Googled them both ... yes, you are correct cuttlebones and Tums are both basically the same thing calcium carbonate ... today is not a waste ... I have learned something new!  (I think everyone should learn at least one new thing, no matter how big or small, each day.)   Cuttlebones a cheap form of Tums???   

No wonder I am not familiar with the Supreme Science Nuggets for Chinchillas ... they are a European based company.  Does your bag break down the actual ingredients and the % of each ... they did not do so on the website.  That would be interesting to know because they are a bit vague about them.

The fighting between males can start earlier, but as a rule, it starts between 4 months and 9 months to a year.  When they are maturing and the breeding instincts take over.

Yes, it is regretable and very sad you and she have both lost him.  But, he's crossed the Rainbow Bridge and is playing on the other side with all the other chinnies that went before him.  You are told you should not have favorites, but there are some that just seem to touch your heart a little deeper than others ... mine was Mocha ... I cry even now when we talk about her, and she had been gone almost 10 years now, she was not my first chin, but is and always will be, my special little one out of the hundreds we have had over the many years ...

Keep us posted!

   Jo Ann   

[dianah]

thank you i hope he's found mocha and they have fun together. it's awful, absolutely awful. i had to take a week off work because i couldn't stop crying. thankfully my boss is very understanding and everyone was very nice when i came back. i miss him so much.

right, i have a bag of supreme science nuggets right here:
ingredients: cereals, alfalfa, vegetable protein extract, vegetables (plantain 2.5%, parsley 2.5%), seeds, oils and fats, salt, l-lysine, dl-methionine

typical analysis:
protein16%
oil 3%
fibre 19%
ash 7%
calcium 0.8%
phosphorus 0.4%
vitamin A 10000 iu/kg
vitamin D3 1000 iu/kg
vitamin E 50 mg/kg
copper 10 mg/kg

does that sound good? i believe they're the best nuggets available over here.

[dianah]

the good news is that fluffy likes her supplements and just eats them as if they were treats. i do have to distract pippi as she wants everything mummy's got but she's happy to have a nugget instead.

now, on 30th of June, fluff weighed 776g. since then, her weight hovered between 772g and 773g. so now i'm not so sure she's pregnant. i do go through phases though - when she was nursing and wasn't putting any weight on, i was sure she wasn't pregnant. then she started putting weight on and about a week ago, i was pretty much convinced she was pregnant. now her weight stabilised i haven't got a clue.

one thing i've noticed though - she keeps stretching, just randomly, not when she wakes up. she never lies on her side (the only time i saw her asleep on her side was when we were bringing her home) so i can't use that one but she normally never stretches either and i've seen her do it a few times in the past few days.

she was standing upright earlier today - she usually lies on her front (only started doing this since she had babies) - and her tummy did look as if she had a bump but then the only female i can compare her to is three months old.

20 days to go... i'm just wondering, if she is pregnant but due to the stress she's been through (vet, handling due to mastitis, losing beloved chinchi) she doesn't give birth - when would you have her checked out just to make sure there's nothing inside? i've read some chins can be pregnant for 120 days but isn't that a little too long to wait?

sorry, i know i'm asking a lot of questions, i just want to make sure that i'm prepared for any scenario and can give her the care she needs.

[dianah]

well, having said all that, she just weighed herself at 778/779g - just to show me!

[Jo Ann]

 

the good news is that fluffy likes her supplements and just eats them as if they were treats. i do have to distract pippi as she wants everything mummy's got but she's happy to have a nugget instead

This is good ... as a matter of fact ... the biggest reward the chin gets, is when you give them a treat, you are also giving them your individual/undivided attention.  Chinchillas love to be the center of attention, as a rule.   

If the kits were born on April 6, she could be anywhere from 86 to 92 days into her pregnancy.  That would leave approximately 3 weeks ... the last month is when they gain the most weight the fastest ... I would keep an eye on her weight.  If she continues to gain weight ... notify the vet that she may be pregnant and the approximate delivery date 107 to 120 days from April 6 ... Around the end of July or first of August (approximately).  Average is 111 days which would have a delivery date of July 26.

If she is pregnant and they die now, she would probably be able to absorb them back into her system (if there is only one or two).  If she carries them longer, each day she carries them is better for the kits ... as long as she can deliver them safely.  If she carries them to close to the due date and then they die or for what ever reason she is not able to deliver them ... the more dangerous it is for her.

Don't panic, just be prepaired and make sure you let your vet know she could be close to due date, if she is pregnant.  Usually kits are born without a problem, but on rare occasions, a vet is needed.

The one thing you want to watch for is when she starts stretching allot, then flattens out on the floor of the cage and you can see the contractions ... once it is to this starts ... she should deliver fairly soon ... if you see a kit that is part in and part out and she seems not to be able to get it out ... get her to the vet immediately.  If she shows bright red blood, but no kits ... get her to the vet.  Spotting is often a sign of trouble.

Keep us posted!

   Jo Ann

[dianah]

thank you so much Jo Ann

i did speak to the vet last week and said she may be pregnant but i will let her know closer to the date so they can anticipate possible problems.

see, her first pregnancy - she had triplets! i'm really hoping that if she is pregnant, the number won't increase as i've not really heard many all happy quad stories (then again, i've been reading forums and people come there for advice so perhaps there's plenty of happy and healthy quads out there) - we are of course prepared to hand feed to help mummy out, we're quite experienced in this now! pippi was really good, she just took a bottle and gobbled down a reasonable amount in minutes. ffynn (skinny we called him!) took half an hour a go as he was only keen on little drops. i just want them all to be healthy.

thank you so much, i'll keep updating

[dianah]

fluffy let me stroke her tummy last night (she doesn't normally let me do this, she usually pushes my hand away with her hands). she definitely has quite a large firm bump sticking out at the bottom of her tummy.

her weight still seems to hover between 770-780g.

i'm just wondering, should i give her some alfalfa hay? the nuggets she gets are alfalfa based, would that be a bit of an overkill?

i'm going to speak to the vet today as well and let them know the possible dates.

[dianah]

fluff let me stroke her tummy today and i found an elongated nipple!!!