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[Gabbsomatic]

Okay, I just had an agrument with my mom and she believes that fresh vegetables and fruit and good for my chinchillas but I highly disagree. Can someone give me a straight answer because I can't seem to find one on other internet sites. Thank you!

[ABC Chinchillas]

Dried or Fresh fruits and veggies are bad for chinchillas and can lead to GI stasis and Death

[dianah]

well. i've been looking into this for some time. when i got my first chinchilla over three years ago, the vet who did his health check recommended he gets green leaves. i had been giving him green leaves and my other four chins (one is two years old, the other three are younger) without any problems. when i came across info that they should not have it, i consulted my other vet (we have moved since) - she's my chinchilla vet and said greens in small quantities were ok. i also read a few studies that concluded that the problem with fresh veg and gi stasis is lack of fibre in the diet rather than consumption of vegetables itself.

then, i got a rescue chin with very bad teeth. i did research into how to help her (in addition to her medical treatment) and there's a rescue who has a great deal of success with dental problem chins using slowly dried vegetables although some people have sent their story in saying they started using fresh with great results.
i didn't want to give her any to start with as her diet was really really really bad before i got her (banana chips and chinchilla mix, no hay) so i was worried about the lack of fibre and changing too many things. however, she went into gi stasis - we're not quite sure why but we're guessing she went from hardly eating (well, being mostly handfed) to eating loads after her dental and the combination of drugs - we got her through but actually all the vets who saw her (four of them - 2 emergency ones and 2 regular chin vets) thought she was going to die although they didn't tell me until after she got better.
it was awful - you feel absolutely helpless because there's not that much you can do once you exhausted all the medical and support options - and even though it had absolutely nothing to do with vegetables, i decided to stop giving my other lot their leaves. they don't seem too bothered.

however, regarding the 'dried veggies are bad' - why is that? from what i've read, the problems are caused by high water content in fresh veg. surely, dried veg is processed into pellets?

chinchillas in the wild eat certain type of dried veg and grasses.

fruit i would not give. mine get occasional raisin if their poo is on the small side. but never ever fresh.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

My findings have been if it goes in wet it comes out wet.
Just as with any treat small amounts should be tolerated.They don't need any of it, but I have tried some fresh veggies and fruit over the years. Mine just don't like it.
Then many won't give them sunflower seeds any more but I still do now and then.
Mine get dried fruit & a cereal every evening and have for 13 years now.

[dianah]

My findings have been if it goes in wet it comes out wet.

  oh dear! i didn't find that with veg but i do purposefully give a raisin if they're a little constipated!

[ABC Chinchillas]

When you dry veggies they still retain the sugars. Moderation is key but most people do not know moderation. So it is safer to say no. But with dries they still have the sugars and with chinchillas being hindgut fermentors sugars in the digestive tract lead to gas in the digestive tract which leads to bloat. The ocasional rasin isn't going to do it but if you give a chinchilla a bowl full of fruits and veggies you are going to have a problem.  Think of horses, they have a similar digestive tract. Horses eat fruits and veggies yes I know without a problem but they can pass gas. On that diet of fresh fruits and veggies do you know how gassy horses are? chinchillas do not pass gas efficiently like horses. therin lies the problem, the gas sits in the chinchillas intestines.

[jmdebb]

i just want to say what debbie said cracked me up.... in a good way...

what goes in wet, comes out wet... good one deb.

[dianah]

When you dry veggies they still retain the sugars. Moderation is key but most people do not know moderation. So it is safer to say no. But with dries they still have the sugars and with chinchillas being hindgut fermentors sugars in the digestive tract lead to gas in the digestive tract which leads to bloat. The ocasional rasin isn't going to do it but if you give a chinchilla a bowl full of fruits and veggies you are going to have a problem.  Think of horses, they have a similar digestive tract. Horses eat fruits and veggies yes I know without a problem but they can pass gas. On that diet of fresh fruits and veggies do you know how gassy horses are? chinchillas do not pass gas efficiently like horses. therin lies the problem, the gas sits in the chinchillas intestines.

i don't know about horses because i don't have one. one of my dogs, however, is very much like a horse (people keep pointing out) and he's very gassy! not through eating veggies though

well, while i agree that dried veg retains majority of its sugar content when dried, the amounts are miniscule. i.e. 80g of fresh kale contains 1.0g of sugars, 80g of turnip 3.6g of sugars. that's a LOT of veg. if you dried 8g of fresh kale, for example, (and for the sake of argument let's assume it retains all its sugar content), you'll end up with 0.1g of sugars. not much, even on a chinchilla scale.

look, i'm not saying that you should feed a chinchilla on a fresh fruit and veg diet, absolutely not. however, at the same time, lets not flap our arms around and say that everything vaguely related to veg is evil, especially given the research available into wild chin diets supports the use of dried veg as well as evidence that dried veg is beneficial for chinchillas with teeth problems.

[ABC Chinchillas]

I guess I go off the research into the chinchilla digestive tract that has been done by Ranchers. It seems in the MCBA and Empress magazines at least once a year they publish the articles on it. And discussions during the seminars and discussions with the ranchers. I have horses and know how thier tracts work and I know chinchillas have similar digestive tracts. but to each his own. I know a woman who feeds a lot of fresh veggies, Kale and such. Her and I are friends and we do get into a friendly debate. Her oldest chinchilla died at 8 from bloat. She has never had a chinchilla make it past 8 years even though she has had multiple chinchillas for 20 years...I have several in their teens and have had 4 live to their 20's Baby had her last kit at 23 and died of heart faluire at 24. you see a lot more cases of Bloat and lower lifespans in animals given fruits and veggies versus a Hay. Pellet, water diet. Look at ranches they rarely lose their chinchillas to Bloat where it is a common pet issue.

There is research against fresh diet, but after years of working in a nueroscience lab I know there is always research going in both directions.

[dianah]

i'm not saying fresh... i'm saying dried... i stopped feeding fresh after mae had gi stasis (though she is the only chin i've got who never got fresh leaves) and it did scare me. she doesn't get any dried ones at the moment either but that's because i don't want to make any changes in her diet for a while. once that settles though, i will try the dried veg simply because of her teeth.

my point is, keep an open mind. as you said, new research is constantly done on everything and there are things we know now that we didn't know two years ago. that doesn't mean to necessarily start adapting new things if you don't want to, just acknowledging the new info is enough. sometimes things are done because they had been done like that forever, not because that's the best way.

[ABC Chinchillas]

My concern with the dried is the sugars are still there and it is the sugars that cause the Gas reaction when the bacteria in the intestinal tract digest them. I stick to the K.I.S.S rule...Keep It Simple and Stupid. The less you introduce to a chinchilla the less you have to rule out when their digestive tract is upset. I do keep an open mind I have heard the research but The fact that I have old chinchillas with no issues and I see a lot of people who feed the chinnie salads (dried herbs) and such with issues and the way digestion works I would not risk it. And I guess it also comes down to the OP asked about fresh. Fresh will give a chinchilla diarrhea. The friend of mine who feeds it has to scrub her cages constantly as they get diahrea everytime she gives the fresh stuff.  But I keep the attitude you will do what you will do like arguing with people who want to breed pet store chinchillas or rescues. People will do what they will do you can present the information and they will take what they want. I for one Will not be giving my chinchillas fruits or veggies in any form other than the ocasional raisin. I like my chinchillas alive and healthy.  All the research I have heard about in the last 5 years shows the breaking down of sugars in the intestines and bloat. There is research out there due to the fad of dried herbs. Even veggies have simple sugars in them like fruit. Are the scientific articles I have seen have shown an incrrease in intestinal gases.

[dianah]

i fed fresh veggies for nearly four years and never had a chinchilla with diarrhea (or even soft poo). the only chin with diarrhea is the rescue chin who's not been given veg and has had all sorts of other trouble.

i agree that the poster was asking about fresh, however, the reason we started talking about dried was because your first reply stated that 'Dried or Fresh fruits and veggies are bad for chinchillas and can lead to GI stasis and Death'

i very much like my chinchillas healthy and alive too and i think you'll find very few people who don't. i find it actually rather insulting for you to say that people who feed dried herbs etc do not care about their chins and want them sick and dead.
 
regarding sugars, 0.1g of sugars in a daily intake of dried veg is negligable. there's sugars in hay and nuggets too.

and yes, people will read the info and take what they want from it, however, a militant 'do not ever give a chinchilla dried veg or he/she will die' could put someone off to the point where they would not feed dried veg to a chinchilla who could benefit from it (ie, bad teeth. although i know what your opinion on bad teeth is)

as for scientific articles... i've read scientific articles that claimed utter nonsense. i've read some that were near and i've read some that were right. publishing a scientific article - even if it's published in a journal - just means that somebody produced a set of data and interpreted it in a certain way. you can interpret data in any way you like, quite often the same set of data will support hypotheses from completely diffeernt parts of the spectrum.

[dianah]

also, talking about sugars, lactulose (C12H22O11) is the medication used in combination with motility drugs for bloat and gi stasis, as well as constipation and fatty liver. it's basically sugar solution. synthetic sugar but sugar nonetheless.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

I have to say I was not sure  when I read in the last{ or one before} MCBA mag that it was OK to feed nuts to chins. I have never.
My oldest chin is 16 now and has gotten a couple of pieces dried fruit & a pinch of oatmeal every day of the 11 years I have had her. As have all my chins with out ever a case of bloat.

I stick to the K.I.S.S rule...Keep It Simple and Stupid.

I love this and yes so very true.
When I got my first pair I was flabbergasted by all I was reading & learning!!!!!! Do this ,don't do that
I have not change anything in a good 8 years now, & no sick chins!!!!

 Gabbsomatic tell your mom it's not a good idea to feed fresh, and not good to keep adding new or changing their feed.

[ABC Chinchillas]

Dinah,
   I wasn't intendig to insult you with the statement I like my chinchillas alive and healthy I am saying that I am hesitant to add anything to their diets because at this point I have had very few issues and they have been healthy so why change. My opinion on bad teeth is if it is maloclusion and the roots are growing into the skull change in diets isn't going to fix that. I don't think you know my opinion. I have treated non malo dental issues. Malo is the growing of roots into the jaw everything else is a different dental issue people lump all dental issues in with Malo when describing it. it has become a huge umbrella of if there is teeth issues it is malo..not all dental problems are malo. True I feel that Malo animals should be humainly put down, but not all dental issues need to be put down, Just Malo.  We are going to have to agree to disagree on the veggies thing, I truly feel they are dentramental to the chinchillas and know most people also feel the same. I know that just cause most people feel that way doesn't make it right but all the necropsies have have participated in over the years and seeing more issues with animals people give all those extras too is personal experiance. chinchillas not given the extras do not tend to develop GI issues, where chinchillas given all the extras you see way more cases of GI issues.
   
  There was a discussion with a mineral/herbal feed person at the last shindig. it led to a long discussion on benifits and harm of Herbs, minerals, carbs and sugars. it is a very very delicate balance too much of something is as deadly as not enough. I hope you never have to deal with bloat or prolapse or GI stasis. I have had to deal with it a lot when I took in rescues from people feeding veggies cause the vet recomended it or those dried carrot treats.  I have also dealt with Carefresh impactions in rescues and even a hairball impacted which to this day many people I know and respect swear they can't get hairballs....

The vet at WI school Chritoph who has done seminars has also stated that although vets are taught in vet school chinchillas at the same time as rabbits there is a huge diference (which we all know) and that they cannot digest the fruits and veggies properly. Unfortunatly vets are taught chinchillas by 1 page of notes when in vet school, and Rabbits and GP are also on that page.  This has been a discussion at many seminars as have teeth issues.

For the MCBA magazine they sometimes publish old articles. The GI tract was newer research from 2005. I will have to get into my boxes in the attic and find it. Again I will say things are OK in moderation, perhaps you have no issues because you know what moderation is. The Average pet owner cannot handle moderation. They can't handle 1 raisin a day they will give a box because the chinchilla looks so cute begging. So if you give a go ahead it is safe then they feel it is safe to give as much as you want even when you stress moderation.