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[RMC]

The blacks with black that extends clear down to the belly are infact a black ebony hybrid. wether or not it is on the ped. these chins due infact carry a "eb" gene.
There are many different ebony genotypes. some are less wellknow then others. the ones that are most likely the culprit. is either the "busse" or the "french blue" both are accumulative veiling extenders. that apear only as well veiled chins in the the hetro. form and many can also have reasonable good appearing bellies in the hetro or lighter phases.
any of these blacks should be treated as any other eb.

[Jo Ann]

Hi RMC,
     Is this why some blacks/black velvet/Gunning Black (all the same thing) will carry the solid black veiling all the way down to the white belly instead of black to graduating to the shades of gray and then to the white belly?
     When you have a black velvet that shows a white belly, but the inner part of the fur on the belly (closest to the belly) is black, is this also an ebony influence?
      You have my curiosity up.     I am learning more and more why it is referred to at the "wild card" in the mutant colors.

 
Jo Ann

[RMC]

Yep that is the eb. influence. besides the lack of grey sides they easiest place to idenify it is between the front legs and under the chin.
THe black velvet is probably one of the easiest mutations to breed as far as quality ,inprovement ect. you just have to watch out for the eb. influence and deal with it appropriately so it doesn't spread through out you herd.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

While some seem foxier than others, would that be a lack of standard.

Not quite sure what you are asking here ... by "foxier" are you saying thicker fur or more red cast to the fur? Or all round quality and size of the chin?

You answered in the second part, I was referring to the color/red cast.
Funny because I like the rusty tans, over the browner, I call it mousy looking.
Reminds me of a dull hair dye job, while the rusty cast in the tans makes them seem brighter.
I have seen the cast in a few standards and I don't like it.
I like to blue hues in them, and the bv's, and ebonies.
I don't use them in breeding, and sell them as pets, but I think the "rusty" looks nice in the beiges.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

I just put a pic in my album of a good shot of the difference between Moms beige coat and the beige/tan maybe's coat.
I like the kits coat color, is that the difference in the beiges and tans?
Could she still be a beige but rusty? Not good.
She is 3 weeks now.
I'll post a better shot of her whole body now at 3 weeks, just wanted to show what I was talking about, and find out whats desired.
I will spit up this pair I think, and put the ebony with a standard.
I'm only selling these as pets, but we all know we have no control over what customers do.
So rather than take a chance, I wouldn't breed this combo if it's not " right" /a good color.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

This is what I was looking for, thanks chinchillagrl06
Gary Neubauer Q&A Session

I see such a big difference between the light tans, and the mediums, but not so much between the med. tans, and the dark tans.
In most pics the dark tans look true brown like chocolate, but the med browns look only slightly lighter and rustier brown.
Is this an accurate observation?

My new little possible tan kit looks just like my tov homo with out the white belly.
Would that be an accurate discription of a light tan?
 
Gee I wish I had a bigger breeder handy to me.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

Ok lets see if I can get a color on this little guy.
Here's my 9/11, beige/tan belly, and his Moms, plus his eye. He has a blue ring, and an inner ring of kinda blue ring right in the dark red eye. His Mom is hetero and has a much lighter brighter red eyes.
Refering to what Jamie said in the thread Re: Tans or Beiges??
Gee is seems more obvious on those pics, but side by side Mom and kit look much the same.

[chinclub]

What is the Dad's color?

[RMC]

At three weeks old it is way to early to evaluate the quality of the kits. I have had kits that look good at a young age then don't when thwey are older. I havbe also seen chins that don't look good at a young age then mature into top quality chins .
Any thing under 8 months old is only a guess at quality.
Ask all the top breeders how many top quality kits they have sold at weaning. because they weren't quality. Only too grow up into top quality(includeing GSC) chins that the original breeders wish they hadn't sold.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

Jamie,
Dad is an ebony/poss.vc carrier, but with a standard back 4 generations ago.
Mom is a hetero from a standard dame, & tov homo sire that came from a standard and bv pairing.
This kit was born 9/11.
I just love the tans, but how do you get good tans with out the ebony kits showing the red tint?

[chinclub]

Then she is a light tan.  She wouldn't be a pastel since she couldn't be Homo for the beige gene.

[RMC]

THe original term "pastel" was a recessive charcoal dominant beige hybrid
and the term "tan" was a dominant ebony dominant beige hybrid.
Now some use the term pastel as a light phase tan,and others use it as a homo beige/ebony chin.
If you don't want offcolor/red kits don't use offcolor breeders. Extremely clear ebs and beiges will not produce offcolor kits. Clarity is a accumulative recessive mutation and must be treated as such in breeding.
Remember clarity is not standard but a" mutation" and must be treated as any other accumulative recessive mutation. The only pigments in fur are red/yellow and brown/black and the original agouti pattern is brown/black with a yellow bar and underfur.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

Thanks Jamie
From the information you've given that's what I was thinking.

THe original term "pastel" was a recessive charcoal dominant beige hybrid
and the term "tan" was a dominant ebony dominant beige hybrid.
Now some use the term pastel as a light phase tan,and others use it as a homo beige/ebony chin.
If you don't want offcolor/red kits don't use offcolor breeders. Extremely clear ebs and beiges will not produce offcolor kits. Clarity is a accumulative recessive mutation and must be treated as such in breeding.
Remember clarity is not standard but a" mutation" and must be treated as any other accumulative recessive mutation. The only pigments in fur are red/yellow and brown/black and the original agouti pattern is brown/black with a yellow bar and underfur.

Thank you so much RMC.
So the agouti pattern is not so much what is desired, but rather an evenness and clarity of any shade of gray etc...?
Yes?
Oohh I get so excited when I learn/figure out something new.
and Peanut is a Tan  albeit maybe not the best, but I sure love his coat. The effect you get when you rough it up is awesome.Like a brand new carpet when you rub one way and then the other.
Being the only breeder here sometimes I have to make my own misstakes to see how it's suppose to look.
I have placed the ebony Dad with a nice standard to see if maybe I can correct some in his off spring.
The beige Mom I may never use again.