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[QTPie61282]

I have heard names being shot around of certain mutations.  I know I would never attempt them but I wanted to get a feel out there as how you all feel about each of them and what you know about them.  They are just interesting in that they are so mysterious.
For Starters the "Blue Diamond"  supposed Sapphire x Violet x Beige combination?  I have heard that two chins that carry both the Violet and Sapphire gene can produce these.  Does this mean that a Sapphire (violet carrier) and a Violet (sapphire carrier) can produce one?  I have also heard that they hold the beige gene too, whats true and whats not true?  I know it is a very weak mix and can ruin the integrity of the chins, that the sapphire genes need to be improved on before mixing them with the violets.

Second is the "Ultra Violet" or "TOV Violet".  I read that a Violet crossed with a BV, using their offspring and bred back to an Unrelated Violet will produce a beautiful Ultra Violet, but they must be bred back to a violet to get the darker coloring?  is this true?

Same question for the "Royal Blue" or "TOV Sapphire".

Let me know what you all think about these and if you can answer any of my questions.

[Jo Ann]

I would like to know more about these "strange colors".

As of right now, the MCBA and Empress only recognize 7 colors:

1) White, which includes: the pink white, white mosaic, silver tipped white, and white with dark guard hairs
2) Sapphire, which includes: light, dark and medium shades.
3) Violet, which includes: the 3 different shades and the violet wrap.
4) Beige, which includes: the 3 different shades and the tan wrap.
5) Naturalle, which is commonly known as the Standard Gray and it's
different shades of gray.
6) Black, also know as the Gunning Black, or the Black Velvet.
7) Charcoal/Ebony and the varying shades of it.

The "ole timers", and most judges, refer to these 'new' colors as "funny bunnies".  They are usually much weaker genetically than the other chins, due to inner breeding the mutation colors.  And, as a rule, they are smaller than acceptable at the shows.  Take one to a show, and it will be lucky to get a 4th or 5th place, as a rule.

At one time, the violet was extremely weak, but some good experienced breeders, that knew what they were doing, worked with them for many years.  Some stronger violets are beginning to show up, thanks to these breeders hard work.  I think the "Ultra Violet" is referred to as a dark violet or a violet TOV ... someone correct me if I am wrong.

The Sapphire is going through now, what the violet has just been through, hopefully we will be seeing stronger sapphires in the market soon.

I was able to acquire a violet wrap last year that is one of the most beautiful wraps I have ever seen.  Good size, thick plush fur, dark rich violet color all over ... no splotches anywhere ... just trying to figure out what I want to breed her with.   

 
Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

Oh Wow, She is Beautiful.  Nice rich color to her.  I just got a standard vc/ec female from Serena in BC Canada, she won first place at this past show.  I was planning on breeding her with a violet male that I bought from Ritterspach in Ohio, in hopes to get some violets and some solids.  Do you breed the offspring back to a violet (unrelated of course) in order to get the richer, darker color?  Ive read this somewhere.

And the Ultra Violet is the same as a TOV Violet.  I just wanted to know what others felt about them and the TOV Sapphires, or if they knew anything behind how they get such a dark color.  Again I thought it was breeding their offspring back to either the voilet or the sapphire (unrelated) to get a deeper color.

Do you think the MCBA will ever recognize any new mutations? How long does it usually take for them to recognize the new ones?

Isis- Standard vc/ec


Vinny- Violet

[Jo Ann]

Thank-you for the compliment.     I just wish I could say she was born at my place.     I have a 5 generation pedigree for her.  She has noting but violet carriers in the 5 generations above her.  No pure anything, so I am sure all of them had to be excellent in their size, color and fur to produce what they did.

Black (black velvet) and ebony are often added to the line to get the darker colors ... the only problem there, is that the black velvet and/or ebony will show-up in future kits when you least expect it.  Future generations can be carriers without it being visible.  The ebony can show up as "dirty bellies" in any, but usually not all, of the generations that should have a pure white belly. 

The judges usually prefer the darker shades because the color looks "richer", rather than "washed out"  under the strong judging lights, but there are some people that prefer the lighter shades of the violet.  It is the hue that determines the true violets ... this holds true, as a general rule, for the light and dark shades of the violet and the sapphire.   You need to vary your violets and sapphires to what you want to do with them ... light or dark ... show or not.  I think it will be the same with the sapphires.

Your chins are beautiful!  Venny reminds me of my little Jamie.   

Do you breed the offspring back to a violet (unrelated of course) in order to get the richer, darker color?

I would think so, but I don't have enough experience with the violets mixed with other colors to say one way or the other, yet.  (Notice I said "yet" ... I'm trying.)     

Do you think the MCBA will ever recognize any new mutations? How long does it usually take for them to recognize the new ones?

Yes, but probably not in my life-time.      The ranchers in the MCBA are the ones that established the Association, still run it and are the judges at the shows.  The chinchillas are still being judged by the original standards ... for their value as live stock.  (Large, blocky, true color, thick plush fur, evenly colored and marked.)  I will have to say (and as it should be), the standards for "live stock" in reference to chinchilla, is a much higher standard than the "pet version" of the chinchilla. 

One of the main "problems" these ranchers have with us, as hobby breeders, is that the majority of us do not know what they are doing when they start mixing mutations and that we are consistently developing a smaller, weaker chinchilla.  This is not good for the chinchillas' future, as a species.

The standard gray is/should be the backbone of our herds.  If we are not intergrading the standards back into our herds at least every second generation ... we are making a mistake, one that may doom the chinchilla.  You want to use the highest quality pure standard gray to give the genetics a boost in your mutations.

I had one lady that ask me what two chins that I had, if put together, would give her the most possible variations in colors in the chins they would produce.  She wanted to buy them and breed them.  I could not convince her this would not be a good idea.  Needless to say, I refused to sell her any chinchillas. 

In today's world, it is the era of "instant" everything and "disposable" everything, without thought of what troubles it may cause in the future.  Anything worth having is worth working and waiting for, or so I have always been told and have believed.

Up until this year, it was almost unheard of for a mutation to win grand champ or reserve in any of the shows ... considering that ... think of how many years the mutations have been around.     L-o-n-g time.  So, we wait and watch.   

 
Jo Ann

[jmrothermel]

Jo Ann, if I've said it once, I've said it a million times that violet wrap is STUNNING.  If you can't figure out what to breed her with, send her my way, I can add her to my violet line 

I would have to agree with Jo Ann, it will probably be a long time before the MCBA recognizes these new color combinations that are popping up.  And for them to be of show quality, well that'll be even longer

Did anyone else here see that eb that won GSC at Nationals?  I was down at Whitewoods before Nationals and had my eye on him, as well as another breeder near me, but Dave wouldn't sell him.  Now I know why 

[Sillychinchilly]

Jo Ann! Your VW is possibly the most gorgeous chin I've ever seen!! Does she have a name? When you do decide who to pair her with, do you have any idea how much you'd charge for a kit? I'd LOVE one. O.O

[RMC]

I would expect that there will be at least a few new mutations recognized in the next ten years . These new mutations are currewntly under development.
there have been many mutations rcognized I count at least 6 dominants and 13 dominant mutations that have been recognized.
And blends(or hybrids) of current mutations  are not recognized as they are not a unique genotype,but a combination of known genotypes.

[Jo Ann]

   Thanks for the complements on my violet wrap.  I am looking for a good standard violet carrier or ebony/violet or tan/violet carrier that has strong fur and a good blocky build, hers is great and I don't want to take away from that.  I need to keep her with the best I can find.  I'm going to keep looking till I find the right one.     Right now, she is just happy to share her cage with a couple of white mosaic girls I have.  She is the dominate female of the bunch, so it will take a good male to make her happy.

Vinny is beautiful!  I love his big fluffy tail, too.     Isis looks great ... very blocky build!

Your ebonies are what you want to use to get the wraps ... a good ebony violet carrier should give some good results with the standard vc/ec.

... standard vc/ec female ... planning on breeding her with a violet male ... in hopes to get some violets and some solids. 

Keep in mind, any time there is an ebony in the background, it can show up and give you a dark belly (undesirable) down through the generations.  Breeding an ebony carrier with a pure violet may get you some wraps, but, it may also give you violets with dirty bellies (violet/ebony carrier) and standards with dirty bellies (standard/vc/ec) ... these could be crossed with ebony/violet carriers for a better chance at violet wraps and ebony/violet carriers.  Anytime you start mixing, make sure you will want what you may get.     Once you get the ebony into the line, there it will stay.  This is good in some ways and bad in others.

Do you breed the offspring back to a violet (unrelated of course) in order to get the richer, darker color?  Ive read this somewhere.

Your richer darker colors often come from the influence of the ebony or the Gunning black (black velvet).
When interested in keeping the pure white bellies, I would use a good Gunning black or a very dark standard gray.
If you are looking for the wraps, stick with the ebony in the line.

It takes allot of generations to get a violet wrap like the one I got from her ... that's why I am being so picky about the one I want to breed her to.  ..... With my luck, when I finally find one for her, put them together, wait a year and still no kits ... one of them will be sterile.          I hope not, so keep your fingers crossed for me!


Let us know how your match-up works out!

  Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

Thanks Jo Ann.
These two have been paired for a good while now.  Her due date was actually almost 2 weeks ago.  She is a good size.  Definitely looks and feels pregnant.  I just cupped under her belly the other night and it felt large and hard. 
Shes drinking a lot of water, a great eater and very energetic.
I think she needs some time to run around the room more.
So I'm just waiting patiently but very eager to see some healthy kit/kits.

My Beige female was due this past saturday and hasnt popped yet.  It will be her third litter and I might retire her after this one if she has 4 or more.  Shes Kiwi who had 4 last time and 3 the time before that.
Shes filling out too.  Both I believe are pregnant and we are just waiting to walk in one day and find the little ones.

Your violet wrap is beautiful, I dont blame you for keeping her.
When I get more breeder cages Im planning on working more specifically on the better lines without the ebony in one background.
Do they get dirty bellies only when one parent has ebony in their lines or can dirty bellies happen even with both parents having ebony??