Chinchilla Community Forums
Breeders => Breeding 101 => Topic started by: Camogirl83 on November 06, 2008, 04:02:33 PM
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I have two female chinchillas, one, who is 3 years old and I got from a breeder and the other, 3 months old that I got from a young couple who had babies. I am getting a young baby male in a month and I told my breeder. He said that I will not be able to keep the male and the female in the same cage because the females will fight with him and possibly kill him. In my reading on breeding I never read anything like this, is this true? Please let me know if this guy is crazy or telling the truth. Thanks!
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Your breeder is correct.
Females are dominate and will fight with any new chinchilla. Getting a female to adapt to a new cage mate can be hard. Getting two females to adopt to a new cage mate would be extremely hard!! Chinchillas will fight to the death if they are not happy with a new cagemate.
But more importantly you can't put the new male with the new female. Females must be at least 8 months old before they can be anywhere near a male. Otherwise you will have a pregnant female that is too small to deliver the baby. If the baby can't fit out the female will die.
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I have heard others say that in order to breed that they must "bond" and that I would have to have them in the same cage to get them to bond. If they can not be in the same cage, how will I get them to bond? Just during out of cage time?
I am fine with keeping them in separate cages till they are old enough, though I will have to get another cage, which I was planning on doing anyway. When I introduced my two females to eachother they were instant buddies, but I do understand the fighting. One time when I was babysitting my friend's female chinchilla, I had to keep her in a sparate cage because she wouldn't let my chinchilla eat and would bit at her fur and rip it out if she went near the food.
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It is true that they must bond before breeding but you don't want to do this until after the female is breeding age. I also strongly suggest you do not place that male with two girls. Even if you get them together once a female comes into heat you will have fighting and once a female gives birth you have a whole new set of problems!
When breeders choose to breed one male to several females they place them in ranch run cages where each female has her own cage and the male comes and goes between them through a tunnel. Each female wears a collar that is too big to allow them to fit into the tunnel so they have to stay in their cage. This is what I suggest if you are determined to breed him to both girls. Please do not put them all in one cage.
(http://www.huggablepets.com/huggablepets/cages.jpg)
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I am a little bit confused because I know others who have their males and females mixed and they have had babies and there is no problems. This is way I thought the breeder was off. How is that okay for those people?
I know that you have to take female out for birthing and babies. I have a birthing cage and was planning on getting another if need be. But I was told that my 3 year old would probably not breed.
How would you get them to bond with out being in the same cage? I can not have the cages arrangement that you suggest in my condo.
Don't worry i won't put them in the same cage if it will hurt my chinchillas. I love them! They are my babies!
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::silly:: Please keep in mind that all rules do not apply to all chinchillas, but, for safety sake, it is best to follow the rules. If you do not mind taking a chance of finding one of the females or kits mangled, then ignore the rules. (Sometimes the females will even turn on the male.)
Rules to go by:
#1 Females have the ability to breed (get pregnant) at the age of 3 1/2 months, but their birth canale is not big enough for them to be able to safely deliver the kits ... in this case the momma chin and the kits all usually die. Female chins should be 8 to 12 months old or older before they are put into a breeding situation, in my opinion. (Anytime a male and a female are put together they are in a breeding situation, regardless of age or family members. This includes, but is not limited to, living in the same cage or even just playtime together outside the cage.) Females must be removed from any male chins before she reaches 3 1/2 months old. Some of the rarer colors, such as the ebony, the violet and the sapphires, I will not put them into breeding until they are 12 to 18 months old ... depends on health and weight.
#2 Males have the ability to breed at the tender age of 10 weeks. This is why a male kit must be removed from the momma chin before it becomes 10 weeks old, to avoid insest.
#3 As a general rule you do not want to place two or more females in the same cage with a male. Females have been known to kill the kits of the other female and/or fight with the other female. Females tend to be more territorial than males. As I said before, not all rules apply to all situations, but I would rather be safe than sorry.
#4 I am a little bit confused because I know others who have their males and females mixed and they have had babies and there is no problems.
You may not "see" a problem and the breeder might "think" there is not a problem ... BUT, there is definitely several possibilities of problems. ... When more than one male has access to the same female(s) ... Who's the daddy? To be a responsible breeder, you need to know and keep record of each kits' parents and blood lines. Are these males and females of the same family? If so, then they are breeding within their own family ... this is called incest ... not a good thing.
#5 A female chinchilla goes right back into season soon after the kits are born, if any male is with her, she will probably get pregnant immediately. If this happens it is called breed-back. When this happens the momma chins is trying to produce good healthy milk for her kits and at the same time trying to nurture the new unborn litter she is carrying. This is to much of a strain on the momma's system and to little of the good things she can give her nursing kits as well as her unborn kits ... all suffer.
#6 Two males in the same cage (even if they are not in the same cage with a female) have been known to fight to the death for the right to breed a female in season ... even if they can not get to the female, they will often fight over her. Even males of the same family. I learned this the hard way. A father and son lived together peacefully for 9 months, never even the sign of a little squabble between them, then a female in a cage near them went into season ... the father almost killed the son to assure himself the right to be able to breed the female, should the circumstances arise. Had I not found him when I did, he would have died.
Just because one person/breeder does something, it does not mean it is OK to do it, it just means, so far they do not know of a problem by doing it. (Of course there is probably lots of thing they don't know.) Unfortunately, they may not know until future generations, when the problem will become evident. Rules/guide lines are made by people/breeders of long standing and experience for a reason, not just because someone decided 'they' know what is best. It is learned over many years of trial and error. I know breeders that have been breeding over 50 years and they often have thousands of chins at a time.
Two books I find to be the most know ledgable and full of correct information for chinchillas are "The Joy of Chinchillas" written by researchers at California Chins at: http://www.cachins.org/ and "After 40 Years Alice Kline Talks About Chinchillas", by Alice Kline. This one can be found on the M.C.B.A site at: http://www.mutationchinchillas.com/ under Genera Store. Both books may see a little pricey, but not when you consider all the information that is within them. :)
Most females that have never been in breeding by the time that they are 3 years old, have been known not to allow a male to breed or are usually slow breeders. Now, if she has been in breeding but never produced any kits, she could be sterile, OR the male she was with could have been sterile, or things just may not have clicked between them.
I have two pair of chins that have never produced any kits and they have been together almost 10 years. But, they are happy, so they will stay together. None of the four would accept a new mate, so I put each pair back together. :)
I tried one female with 3 males over 5 years before she produced kits. (She was just particular who she wanted to be the father of her kits, I guess.) :blush2:
And I have a pair that have been together for 12 years ... they produced their one and only kit after being together 7 years. This one kit has produced several litters, but the parents have not produced any more kits ... I guess they figured one kit was enough. :2funny:
As far as how to let them bond ... place the cages close together (but at least 3 inches apart). They will become accustom to the other's smell and sounds.
After they become use to you, you can allow them time together outside of the cage, but only with close supervision!
It would be best if there is a second person to help you ... just encase they decide to fight or decide to get together sooner than you want them to.
This should be in a small room with no place for them to hide (such as a bathroom). Two chins out of site for as little as 15 to 30 seconds can sometimes produce kits.
Keep a pillowcase handy to throw over one and catch it, should there be a problem and you need to separate them.
Hope this has helped.
::wave:: Jo Ann
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Thank you for your very detailed information, it was very helpful! I hope that you have a wonderful Holiday and have a happy New Year! ;)
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Yes... so many things can go wrong. I had a bonded pair that turned on each other just Friday night, the male almost killed the female, I am assuming she wold not breed for him due to all of the bite marks around her neck. She is beat up pretty bad, eating very small amounts, the bites were so bad, one of her eye is closing. I have her on meds but she's not looking good...
I delivered my first babies on Thanksgiving Day, it was NO fun.
I also took in a rescue, about 6 months old, I found her dead in her cage with a babies nose sticking out of her.
There are SO many things that can go wrong with breeding, I recommend anyone to do TONS of research before breeding and find a mentor to help you.
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Some chins get along great, some ok, and some will get along then turn on each other. I have only had one male/female fight. They were ok together but then one day I was cleaning the cage above them which I guess made the female upset and she flipped out and attacked the male. She ripped up my hand while I got him out and fortunately he was ok but honestly I am kind of scared of her now and won't put her in a pair situation again. Turned out she was pregnant at the time though. But that male wasn't even doing anything to her when she flipped out, she must have just been aggravated at the noise or whatever from me cleaning the cage.
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The younger female is way to young to be with a male.
On the other note two females with one male is possible but can be tricky. I breed in colonies where I have one male and two or more females. But just like pairs the colonies can turn on each other. I would keep them separate if I were you. You have made no mention of the qualities of your new chinchillas. Are they of the quality that should be bred?
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::silly:: The quality of a chinchilla is hard to know, unless you have been to chinchilla shows and had something to compair them to. What you might think is high quality, you could find out is normal or below normal quality or, maybe it is a high quality. A chinchilla show judge and/or a long-time breeder/rancher can best answer that question for the new breeder/owner.
::wave:: Jo Ann
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Yes if you are going to be putting the male with the females in any form you need to get them evalauted in person by an experianced and reputable breeder. I would recomend going to a show or a seminar.
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By us we have a method. If we familiarizing 3 chins. 2 females and 1 male. We give first two chins in a little case. When they fight together, we shake with the case. We wating as far as they composing themselves and give with them the male. Again the same. Than we give them in a new cage and ewerything is O.K. I have this way now together 2 couples. It takes maybe few hours, butt it works.
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::silly:: I strongly suggest not putting two females with a male in a single cage ... I would not do that with my chinchillas ... but that's me ... do keep one thing in mind ... what ever you do, be prepared to accept anything AND the responsibility for anything that might happen ... including, but not limited to fights to the death. Just my thoughts.
I know those who say they breed in colonies and it worked for them, but I will not take the chance with my little ones. ::Lovehearts::
::wave:: Jo Ann
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I have 3 chins together. One of the females gave birth to a baby and the male and the second female care for. It´s wonderfull. 3 chins and the little baby together :)
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My first attempt at a trio went fine until the older female delivered. I had already removed the male, and found mom on the floor with the new kits and her daughter from the last litter at the top of the cage. Mom would not let her handy.
They didn't fight, but when the daughter tried to go down the mom would snarl at her. I just took the daughter out, and kept her out.
I have just tried it again with a well bonded pair and added an 8 month old female. They all got a long from the start, so I was lucky.
5 months later ,June 14th 2010 I found the two females cleaning kits and dad standing at the door. Both moms were wet, and both kits tried to nurse from both moms. They had it all figured out in no time. It was beautiful. 5 days later I put dad back and all are happily living together right now.
Yes I'd try it again, but you really need to know your chins. I couldn't do it with all mine. I don't think ::07yikes:: could get scary. ::nod::
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By us we have a method. If we familiarizing 3 chins. 2 females and 1 male. We give first two chins in a little case. When they fight together, we shake with the case. We wating as far as they composing themselves and give with them the male. Again the same. Than we give them in a new cage and ewerything is O.K. I have this way now together 2 couples. It takes maybe few hours, butt it works.
there is absolutely no way i would do this with my chinchillas. mine took about two months to be introduced - cage by cage first, swapping toys, swapping cages, playdates in a separate room but they absolutely loved each other.
sticking chins who don't know each other in a small case and shaking it when they fight sounds incredibly cruel to me, they must be scared senseless.
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Ya that sounds pretty cruel to me too.
I've tried the smoosh method, with out the shaking and it can work, but it's much easier and less stressful the old fashion way.
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it's outright dangerous too! shaking a single chinchilla in a box can break bones! i can't believe someone would do that to their beloved pets!
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That´s ridiculous. Breaking bones? I didn´t think you´re shacking wit them like with a schacker :doh: only to stop them fight. I familiarized with this method every my chins. Youg, old, everyone. And it was right and it tooks only few Hours. But with the method with 2 cages near by themselves. One female bite off one finger from a hand from the other female, so this is for me more dangerous than that. But they are chins they never like each other. Sorry for my english, I study German, I was only 9 months in London and that was for my English too little :) This is the produce:
2 females and a kid
(http://nd04.jxs.cz/709/356/71b6771d73_67985131_u.jpg)
female with a kid from the other female
(http://nd04.jxs.cz/181/875/794aacea06_67985190_u.jpg)
trio
(http://nd04.jxs.cz/455/190/830c619c7a_67985206_u.jpg)
pair
(http://nd04.jxs.cz/743/907/c18fe84bf3_67985233_u.jpg)
pair
(http://nd04.jxs.cz/495/511/2abf45d511_67985254_u.jpg)
these are not all but it is an example for that. I don´t tell you: "Do it" but only "This is a way too")
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My cages are from wood, for 2 - 3 chins in 100 cm x 100 cm = 3543 x 3543 inch. This is minimum for my chins. These are two of my cages. The shelve have a hole. My three chins together never fighting with themselves. This is not true!
(http://nd04.jxs.cz/874/952/91f0e9bfa8_67986549_u.jpg)
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Wow...this is why I will NEVER take the chance. :::((( The thought of having sweet, cute tiny little furr balls is just that...a wonderful thought. I have my first two males I purchased from PetSmart and have been fortunate enough NOT to have problems (knock-on-wood)...however, do I know anything about where they came from..NOPE!! I basically just wanted to take them away from being in a big plastic container where they don't belong! The females, I rescued from a teenager in NYS...he didn't want the responsibility of caring for them, he had them in his room and they kept him up all night. He took good care of them and did the best thing by giving them up. Did he know their bloodline? NO!...So just taking them and mixing them with each other is NOT going to happen..I refuse to take a chance in harming them in any way, shape or form for the sake of my own desire to have a cute little fuzz ball...The four are happy as they are, are spoiled rotten and to ruin that would be devastating. Sorry...virgins forever, my beautiful smart little creatures of God! All of these intelligent writings have sealed the deal for me..too much of a chance to take and not enough knowledge on my part! Thank you for all of the truly responsible people on this sight..you CANNOT sugar coat something of ths nature..it needs to be said and an inexperienced person needs to take into account what COULD happen....So be careful, be the wiser and do not take any crazy chances..Good Luck in your decisions! :)
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Every my chins are from other breading stations in CZ. I know everything about my chins :) Their parents, grandparents and much more. I´ll never put any unknown chins together. Blondy40: You are kind that you take them.
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betty, your chins are absolutely beautiful. your cages look nice too. i still, however, would not put any of my chins in a box with a chin they don't know and shake it. but different people use different methods. sorry to hear about the toe!
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Thank you dianah :::grins:: I sympathize with you. I did´n said that the method with two cages is bad. Some people by us are making it too. Other country other manners :) The toe is O.K. almost hidden. thanks
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I learnt from experience. When I first started out breeding I bred too young and one of the females passed away because she was too young. Learn from me, you don't want to breed too young. I raised Peeps on my own and she was the best thing that ever happened to me but she also passed away at 7 years old. I was crushed, still am. But as I started learning, reading, researching, you just can't do it. They will also fight. If you want to breed do some heavy duty research, that's my advice.