Chinchilla Community Forums
Chinchillas => General Chat => Topic started by: Snickerdoodlesmom on May 22, 2012, 01:41:00 PM
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I got snickerdoodle from Petco. What are the chances of him being a purebred standard? And even more importantly, can I breed him safely? The vet said he is healthy so far, but maybe genetic conditions will emerge?
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The biggest problem with not having a pedigree is that you don't know if it could be carrying genes that can result in health problems being passed down to the offspring. Carriers of such genes may never have problems themselves. Or a problem can just crop up unexpectedly later in its life or in the life of one of its siblings that you wouldn't know about. If you bought your chin from a reputable breeder you can report the findings or necropsy and that breeder will be able to trace and correct it. It might not be comforting for you if that happens but after years of doing this breeders get healthier chins and become reputable and the risks are minimized. But now you don't have that safety net.
If Petco got it from a reputable large fur ranch it's likely it was let go because it didn't meet their quality standards which means it shouldn't be bred. Sometimes ranches will breed to get a mutation but instead get a mutation carrier or one that does not have good show qualities as it may take many tries so there's plenty of animals that can be sold as pets from these attempts. It may be fine to try to breed but you don't know if it could be carrying genes for heart defects, malocclusion, or tumors or congenital behavior problems that may crop up unexpectedly. This would be very sad especially if you have bred several litters with this in their line and others like you did the same with the chins they got from you.
Hope this helps.
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The vet is right about the possibility of genetic conditions coming up.
Pedigrees don't even tell you that, if the chins have genetic conditions. A reliable and knowledgeable breeder you can trust will tell you that.
Pedigrees are good for being able to trace lineage, knowing what genes are present in the lines as far as recessives or dominant, etc... (say you have a standard for example - but seven generations back there is an ebony mentioned in the pedigree...and one day you have an ebony born from that standard chinchilla. That would explain it. As ebony can pop up generations later in the lines.) and of course knowing the background to prevent breeding siblings or relations together.
There are issues to worry about like malocclusion or congenital heart defects, that you might not be aware of, but your chinchilla may carry these genes (with maloccluders, sometimes they don't even present the malo until they are seven years old or older.). All it takes is for you to breed one chin carrying malo with another who carries the gene, and one in every four kits would be maloccluders. 2 in every 4 kits would carry the gene for it (which if they were bred, it would continue an endless cycle of maloccluders if bred to others.). If you have an actual maloccluder, which you may not find out till they are much older in age, then every kit out of that maloccluder will carry the gene. If you have a maloccluder and breed them with a chin who just carries the gene, then you have a chance of either kits born carrying the gene for malo or kits born that will express genetic malo later in life.
Malocclusion is proven to be recessive which means it can carry for generations too, in a line and resurface later. All it takes is for two malocclusion carriers to be bred together to make it happen.
Fur chewing is another issue, that is genetic and may present itself in the animal at an early age or much later in age. As far as breeding chins from a pet store, I wouldn't recommend it, since you really don't know what you are breeding for or going to get. Imagine the heart ache of losing your chin to malo at a young age, and then think if you were to sell kits like that to others, how it would feel? It is just to me, an endless cycle of pain and suffering.
There is a lot more to say when it comes to breeding without a pedigree, but I do not want to write a novel! My suggestion, if you choose to breed, is to hook up with a breeder near you that is reputable. They can mentor you and trust me, breeders are more than happy to help new breeders. :)
As far as even thinking of breeding a pet store chin... I had a couple over yesterday who had a pet store chin they had bought back in December. Poor baby had wet eyes, and when I checked his mouth, I found spurs on his lower teeth. :( I was sorry to have to tell them that, and I believe they will be scheduling with a vet for an x ray soon. It made me sad to see the owner cry. Her chinchilla is really beautiful, really beautiful (reverse mosaic), but sadly you can't sugar coat or fake when it comes to tooth troubles in chinchillas I am hoping somehow it isn't malo, but I don't have a good feeling with the chin's eyes and teeth being that way. :( They had thought about breeding too, but I am so glad they chose to keep him as a pet.
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My intent was not to become a breeder, but to continue the sweet disposition my chinchilla has.
Just to clarify, the vet did not mention the possibility of genetic disorders; rather, I thought of it.
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That's okay! ;)
I was just trying to explain to you, how those issues can come about through breeding. Sometimes people don't understand how genetics work or how come chinchillas can have malo when their parents may only carry the gene... I am just explaining how that works. :)
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So is there any way I can safely breed him?
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Unless you find his breeder and find out if it was a chinchilla with no genetic conditions, I would not chance breeding him. Much of what Gray Rodent said is true. I know around here, most breeders that sell to pet stores, sell chinchillas they cannot sell privately whether it is quality or health problems in the lines.
Which makes sense - why would a breeder sell a chinchilla to Petco for $35 - $40 each, when they can sell the same chinchilla (if it is healthy) for $85.00 - $250 privately whether as a pet or for breeding? The only time a breeder would take the lower price, I would think, is when they cannot sell that chinchilla privately. :::(((
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Short answer is no you should not breed your pet store chinchilla. There are so many reasons listed above why you should not. If you want to breed find a reputable breeder and get a breeding pair
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What kinds of diseases could Snickerdoodle carry? I don't want to breed to sell, I want to breed to keep the kits, and I would most likely be able to afford healthcare for malocclusion, but what else is there?
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Here's a list of congenital health problems in chins I have researched. I have read several posts on different forums from people with first hand experience as well as websites for chinchilla rescues and sites for veterinary research.
-Heart defects are not unheard of that cause sudden death at the slightest provocation. This is the reason that one couple decided to breed pet chinchillas because they got two in a row like this from a pet store. I have several unrelated articles from pet owners who have had this happen. They are usually accompanied with heart murmurs that indicate heart valve defects.
-Seizures that are debilitating and cause death and require ongoing medication with no explanation such as vitamin deficiency or diabetes.
-Tumors. I lost my pet rats to tumors. I had 4 over the course of 3 years and decide not to buy any more rats because I didn't have access to a reputable breeder. In fact this is the biggest reason why I am pursuing chinchilla ownership. Had to euthanize two of them. One had seizures from a brain tumor (eye bulging out was the first symptom) and another dragging around a huge tumor that was affecting its mobility. The others died with large palpable tumors.
- Diabetes. Usually leads to cataracts and blindness in chins and causes seizures if not properly managed.
edited to add more details.
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I want to breed to keep the kits
That is an unrealistic idea. See when you get your chinchilla to bond to a mate they will bond for life. That means that you will have a very hard time keeping them apart. So you won't be talking about just one baby. You will be talking about 1-2 pregnancies a year with the possibility of 1 to 4 babies each time. You wouldn't be able to keep up with that many chinchillas without selling some. And if your chinchilla does pass on bad genes that is a lot of vet bills and sick chinchillas. And if you sell/give away babies and those owners decide to breed then those babies will also be sick. And where does it end?
As a breeder myself, I understand your want to experience chinchilla birth. It is beautiful and fun. However, you need to do the responsible thing and be sure that you are breeding a good healthy pair that will produce generations of healthy chinchillas.
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Not sure where you are located, but health care for malo isn't cheap. I know some people who paid well over seven thousand dollars, on one chinchilla for malo. Most can't stand the suffering, pain and hand feeding that comes with malo, so they put their chinchilla down eventually. I imagine the vet bills could be higher, if they prolong the agony and suffering for the chinchilla.
Most people who learn about malocclusion, wouldn't want to deal with it. They feel as awful as I feel when they learn how the roots grow into the nasal cavity, eye sockets or brain, over time. I just try to think of something puncturing my eye from the inside or my brain, and ouch, I am fairly sure that would hurt... :(
I don't truly know anyone who is okay with breeding chinchillas with that. It's a slow painful death and there is no cure for it, when genetic.
Fur chewing is also another genetic issue. Some people associate it with environment, which it can be, but the fact is the chinchilla has to be predisposed to it, and then the right stresses from the environment, bring it out. With fur chewing, while most chins will chew their fur and only their fur, others can and have chewed through their skin and self mutilated themselves.
It's not pretty. One pet owner in Vancouver, I knew, had to put her chinchilla down because he chewed through his side and the vet couldn't save him. :( I've heard of others in the States, having to get their chinchilla's tails amputated to try to curb the self mutilation. :::(((
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@ lilchinchilla- that post made me nervous, as I have noticed much fur chewing. Nickers doesn't chew for so long; I thought he was just itchy. He uses his hind leg to scratch accessible places, but will chew his belly and tail. He gets weekly dust baths, sometimes twice weekly. Is this fur chewing?
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If you see the fur is noticeably shorter after the fur chewing then it's a problem. Otherwise it's normal itching and grooming behavior. In most cases of fur chewing you'll see the patches on the back and around the tail area with guard hairs chewed off. The undercoat is relatively untouched and there will be irregular length patches. There are many pictures of this online if you put it into a search engine.
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Fur chewing has nothing to do with baths. It is genetic, and sometimes chins don't show signs of it till later on in life, some show it right away as babies.
One little bit of stress can bring it out.
Depending how bad the chinchilla can get, they can chew through the skin. Not all chinchillas will chew their skin(many just chew the fur, but some start out with only chewing fur and progress to the skin in time.), but I know of at least two cases where people had chinchilla tails amputated because of the amount of self mutilation going on with their chinchillas, to the point of causing infections and non stop chewing through the skin.
In one case, the owner had to put their chinchilla down because he had chewed through his skin and into his intestines. We had a several paged thread up about it at the time, and when she put her chinchilla down, she was so distraught over the ordeal, she never got another one as a pet again. :(
Her chin came from a backyard breeder who was breeding rescues and pet store chins btw.
A few photos of fur chewing chinchillas:
http://www.google.ca/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1440&bih=663&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=PmVxt75WZzSXsM:&imgrefurl=http://www.whimsys-menagerie.com/furchewingbarbering.htm&docid=8Eir_ox8qip84M&imgurl=http://whimsys-menagerie.webs.com/BuffaloBillBetter.png&w=744&h=558&ei=33O-T57EPIfhiALX2fmKDg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=302&sig=105274447664436106407&page=2&tbnh=138&tbnw=185&start=21&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:21,i:127&tx=85&ty=87
(I am sure with the photo below, these guys are probably all related...)
http://www.google.ca/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1440&bih=663&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=DhIT0hz-9Lz0gM:&imgrefurl=http://www.whimsys-menagerie.com/furchewingbarbering.htm&docid=8Eir_ox8qip84M&imgurl=http://www.whimsys-menagerie.com/girls-1.jpg&w=930&h=662&ei=33O-T57EPIfhiALX2fmKDg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=422&sig=105274447664436106407&page=3&tbnh=140&tbnw=192&start=46&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:46,i:210&tx=106&ty=90
http://www.rivendellchinchillas.com/furchewing.html
Also just for fun, here's a page with photos on breeding chinchillas too. They are graphic photos, but this shows other aspects of breeding too!
http://www.rdzcranch.webs.com/BreedingChinchillasPage.html
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My chinchilla is not stressed though... I can tell because he sometimes chews while he's in the dust bath, which he ADORES.
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I'm actually very nervous... Sometimes I find rough patches on his belly that may have been chewed, but they smooth down immediately.
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He doesn't have to be stressed to chew. ;) As I said - sometimes a little bit of stress will bring it out - in reference to chinchillas who weren't chewing and then suddenly do chew.
It's genetic, and can be passed down onto kits, much like malo or other genes are - since it is another recessive trait. I hope he just keeps to chewing his fur and nothing more. If you find him ever bleeding in spots or bite marks, you may want to see a vet and ask for help in trying to curb the problem, in case it gets more serious. I know of one owner who used a cone shaped collar to keep her chinchilla from chewing themselves. It didn't work as often times the collar would come off, but she tried, because of the self mutilation her chin was doing to themselves. :(
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Ill be posting a picture soon. But I thought he was just very itchy. Is this possible?
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this is my boy
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He is a pretty chinchilla. I don't see any sign of damage though.
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:::grins:: thank you! he is my pride. ill post another recent picture just in case.
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I just caught snickerdoodle chewing on his hip and arm. It looked like he was itchy though.
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I wouldn't worry about it. All animals do that on occasion. Obsessing over one area and chewing fur until it is damaged and ragged is another story and there doesn't seem to be any signs of that here. Even if that does occur it is not uncommon and usually reverses when the underlying cause is found and dealt with.
If your chin is constantly doing this then you might want to look into other causes.
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Breeding an animal does not mean you will continue personality. You will not get a mini version of your current pet. Honestly if you pair a chinchilla and produce kits you are a breeder even if it is "only for you" male + female= babies babies=breeder, breeding for personality alone makes you a backyard breeder.
A chinchilla can develop personality with the care it recieves. I have a mean momma known for having sweet kits,
And you can treat Malo for a little while but it will eventually kill the chinchilla and it is a horrible way to die. The treatment is painful too and is a poor quality of life so you would not want to risk bringing more malo into the world.
It sounds like your chinchilla is grooming not chewing
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I didn't think I would. I thought I'd continue the temperament. What is a backyard breeder? I know nothing about breeding, but I assumed that the animals' instincts would take care of that for me.
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Hereditary malocclusion is different than tooth spurs that may occur because of poor diet or sickness. Tooth spurs can be filed off but true malo occurs at the roots that cannot be accessed. It is caused by defects in the skull itself and I've seen several really good photographs of this online where the roots grow up though the skull and into the eye sockets. The trauma to the back of the eyeballs causes chronic eye infections and sometimes loss of the eyes. Usually a pet owner will put the chin down before it gets that bad.
This is why watery eyes and loss of appetite are considered to be indicators of malo (although a simple eye infection can have the same symptoms) but malo will show up on an xray. The pain from the infections and trauma usually results in the chin going off its food and then starving to death from GI status after days of the owner doing everything possible to hand feed medications and food by syringe.
If you really would like to breed for the cost of a couple of x-rays you could couple of good breeders from a someone who knows their line and might be willing to help you with good advice. I highly recommend that you get a membership to chinchilla club so you have access to documentation that can help you with this too. There are still a lot of different things that can go wrong that you must be prepared to handle even death of the mother and babies from circumstances you may not be able to control. Although I have never bred chins I have cared for many other kinds of farm animals and I have seen many successful births but sometimes it can get very messy and might not turn out as well as you would expect. I see nothing wrong with breeding pets but I think it should be done with a full understanding of the risks involved and with measures taken to minimize those risks. And also there's a possibility that your well tamed pet might not be so tame in the end.
After what I went through with my rats and their gigantic tumors (Though I never bred them every rat from that store had them) I will personally never breed pet store stock of any kind.
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Another thing to consider is what to do with the babies. You might be prepared for one litter, or two but you can't really stop there. They could just keep coming about once or twice a year and you might have to find homes for them for the rest of the breeding pairs lives because if Snickerdoodle and a female are bonded, separating them would be quite traumatic and neutering isn't always safe. I lost my special little guy ten days after neutering.
Are you prepared to have separate cages and separate playtimes for all the different little groups?
Having bred a little myself, I would recommend against it. If there's a female around, you have to keep boys on their own so each new boy is a separate cage and a separate playtime.
I'm sorry, I don't want to put a downer on you. Chinchilla babies are the loveliest things in the world but the painful decisions you have to make are not worth it. Unless it's your job to breed and rehome them, I would say it is a very bad idea.
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Backyard Breeder is a general term, often considered derogatory, used to describe people who breed animals, often without Pedigrees . In some cases the animals are inbred narrowly for looks with little regard to health back yard breeders tend to focus on "temperment" And "cute babies" as an excuse to breed lower quality animals. I(f you are not bettering the species than there really is no point to breeding the more positive term, "reputable breeder" describes operations that use responsible methodology and practices.
It implies either or both of careless home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a for-profit small commercial operation that does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practices.In dogs backyard breeders are often called a puppy mill .
This type of breeder usually exibits
Ignorance of selective breeding goals and techniques, and lack of familiarity with the breed standard of the type of animal being bred.
Exclusive focus on the breed standard involving little genetic screening or co-efficient of Inbreeding calculations. (like breeding for temperment) temperment is not primarily genetic it is learned.
Lack of adequate veterinary care and maintenance.
Excessive breeding from individual females, to the detriment of their health.
Sale of animals with genetic disorders or undisclosed illnesses before they become evident to buyers.
Lack of screening of potential owners or the provision of suitable information to prevent buyers from purchasing an animal that may be inappropriate for them or their lifestyle.
Breeding without concern for the possibility of finding homes, though commercial means or otherwise, for offspring, thus adding to the population of unwanted animals, there are thousands of chinchillas in rescues out there
That is what a backyard breeder is
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but in conclusion, there is no way for me to safely breed a petstore chinnie?
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No there is no way to safely breed a pet store chinchilla
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No it is not safe or.smart to breed your petstore chinchilla
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Just a couple of points. First, do you keep the dust bath in all the time? When I first got Cheech I left it in and she got very dry and itchy. Also my chinchillas bred. I thought Cheech was a male but she wasn't. My partner bought me Chong for my birthday from a breeder. He was a male. The breeders came round and sexed Cheech for us and told us she was female. I still bonded them and they had two kits. One of them, Snake, has malocclusion. She has a constantly watery eye which sometimes gets infected and I know in the future she is going to be in a lot of pain with it and will have to have a lot of vet treatment. I feel so sick with myself that I let that happen. I brought a kit into the world who was broken. She's so shy and doesn't like to push around with the others for food. I worry she gets left out and feed her a little on her own. It's not worth it. I also had to separate Chong after the birth. He was so sad and pined for his partner. It took me a year to find a vet I trusted to neuter him. He is now neutered and lives with his mate and two daughters.
Chong was from a very reputable breeder, but getting him as a baby we just didn't know his personality. We changed the layout of our room when he was about 6 months old and it stressed him out so much he went into stasis. I found a very good vet by pure chance and she helped me nurse him back to health. He very nearly died. Chong is a stress head. I knew that when I bonded him with Cheech. Snake is just like him.
Now I know a lot more. I know how to find a good vet and I know breeding is a bad idea.
And another reason. A few years ago I found out about chinchilla rescue centres in the UK. I didn't even know chinchillas could end up in rescue centres. I was shocked and upset. There are so many unwanted chinchillas that I would never buy one again, not even from a reputable breeder, I would always adopt.
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News, everyone: petco gets their chinchillas from a private breeder. Does this change anything?
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Nope, not without knowing who the private breeder is and where they get their chinchillas from.
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Petco and petsmart do not get thier chinchillas from a private breeder. They are a cooperation and get thier chinchillas from a wholesaler who buys them from ranchers they have contracts and cannot legally buy from a private breeder. And no any chinchilla dumped off at a petstore should not be bred. And private breeder or not it is dumped at a petstore.
Petstores only pay 25-40 for those chinchillas only lower quality animals will end up there. You are a BAD breeder if you breed pet store animals. Just like pedigrees do not make a chinchilla worth breeding. A quality animal is critical. DO NOT BREED YOUR PET STORE ANIMALS. Breeders who sell to petstore sell thier lower animals to the petstore they sell thier culls not animals worth breeding. And any breeder who sells all thier babies means they are not breeding anything worth keeping.
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Well like I mentioned earlier in the thread, what kind of "reputable" private breeder or rancher would sell their chinchillas at a fraction of the price to a wholesaler or pet store, when they can sell the same chinchilla (if it is healthy and good for breeding) privately to other breeders or pet owners for double or triple the price they get from Petco or Petsmart?
I know at least in Canada here, most breeders who sell chinchillas to pet stores for dirt cheap, are the breeders who know they cannot sell the chin privately to a breeder or pet owner because of some issue with that animal's background or health or because the chin is just NOT breeding quality. That is why they say "pet" quality. Pet quality means it is not for breeding. If the chinchilla was healthy and perfect for breeding, then the breeder knows they could sell the same chinchilla to Petsmart or Petco for $30 - $40 each or they could sell a healthy breeding quality chinchilla to a breeder or pet owner for $100 - $350.00 each.
Do the math... most breeders do want to make money to support their raising chinchillas, not lose money, by selling their babies they raise. I'm fairly sure most breeders would rather get $100 - $350 for a baby chin of theirs, than get only $30 or $40.
The pet stores jack the price up to make a profit off the chinchillas for themselves. They have to pay their rent and their employees, so that is why the increase in price you see in the store. The other thing with pet stores is they never usually tell the sources of their chinchillas, so it is an anonymous thing for a breeder to dump their not so good quality chinchillas in a pet store and have no one know.
I know of a few breeders over the years who did just that and explained why they did(which I explained above.). They kept their good quality animals for selling privately and their not so good quality, their maloccluder carriers, etc.. went to the pet stores because they wanted them to be pets only - not for breeding.
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I have given up on breeding snickerdoodle. But just out of curiosity, are there any genetic screenings for chinchillas like there are for humans?
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Nope, no genetic screening, Just waiting and seeing.
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So would you guys say that ALL pet store chinnies are breeder rejects?
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because if a breeder could use the chin or get good money for a chin they wouldn't sell it to a pet store
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I just know that if a rancher or larger breeder around here was selling chins to a pet store, the more than likely reason would be, because they cannot breed that animal nor sell it privately for some reason they'd rather not disclose. It could be something simple, like a female chin being too small to pass kits through her birth canal, to something more serious like genetic defects with the heart or malo or fur chewing.
I personally don't know how many times I have seen people buy chins from pet stores that either are fur chewed or have a heart murmur or end up with malo. I know I could not count the times on one or two hands though. I'd need to borrow other people's hands to count how many times that has happened. I have to say though, all chins deserve a good home, so I hope it doesn't deter people from buying from a pet store if they are choosing to have the chinchilla as a pet.
Sometimes it can be that the chin just is born out of a line of maloccluders (but the chin only carries malocclusion and isn't a maloccluder.) or a line that has congenital heart defects, etc... and not knowing whether the chin carries the genes (since they are recessive.) or is an actual maloccluder or a chin with a heart defect, they'd rather sell to a pet store to prevent the animal from being bred by a breeder and passing on those bad genes.
I don't like to call them breeder rejects... they just are chins that are not fit for breeding and are suited to be pets only... hence why they are in a "pet store".