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[Abby W.]

Ok, I have a female kit born yesterday.  The dam is an ebony female, and the sire is a tan tov.  The little girl's base color is a light to medium ebony.  Her belly is a light ebony, definitely not a white.  She has a dark cape over her shoulders and back, and paw stripes like a tov, but she does not have any sign of a mask.  Her face is almost the same color as a standard gray, maybe a shade darker.  My experience with TOV has always been the mask first, with the kit developing the rest of the markings as they grow.  Has anyone had a TOV born without a mask? 

[mylittlechinchilla]

Do you have pics?  I have had several TOV's that didn't show up right away, it took some time for it to show.

[ABC Chinchillas]

I have had a few tov ebonies born without a mask. I think because they are ebony it just wasn't as pronounced. I have also had a couple TOV's born with a lot of veiling, had is go away excent their head then come back with a beautiful intensity. All you can do is wait a bit and see if it becomes more pronounced.

     edited to add.... Pictures would be very helpful. It is hard to judge based on a verbal description.

[Jo Ann]

 

The dam is an ebony female, and the sire is a tan tov ...

Is the dam a homo ebony or a light or medium or dark ebony?  What are the dam's parents and grandparents?

Is the sire a tan tov (with a beige belly) or a beige tov (with a white belly)?  What are the sire's parents and grandparents?

Her belly is a light ebony, definitely not a white.  She has a dark cape over her shoulders and back, and paw stripes like a tov, but she does not have any sign of a mask.   

The mask can fade and return, just as the stripe on the front paws.  It is unusual for the mask to fade, but I have seen it happen.

The belly being a "light ebony", "not a white", could make her a hetero ebony, or a it could be a standard/ebony carrier with a 'dirty belly' due to the ebony influence from the mom being an ebony.

The stripe on the front paws along with the tov in the sire's background says it's at least a tov carrier and could be a tov, if I am understanding you correctly.

If the sire is a tan tov, then it, too, has ebony in it's background.  Therefore, it could be a light ebony/tov carrier or a tov/ebony carrier with a dirty belly.  (It is desirable for an ebony, be it a light, medium or dark ebony, to be colored evenly above and below.)

When there are so many different mixes of the mutations put together, it's hard to call it. 

This kit, from just the parent's description, has ebony, beige, and blackvelvet in it's background.

It could be a standard with a 'dirty belly' and be carrying the tov, the beige and the ebony genes.

The ebony is what is often referred to as a 'wild card' ... it can show back up in many ways, even skipping several generations, as a kit with a 'dirty belly'.  Undesirable.

Love to see a picture of it.

   Jo Ann

[Abby W.]

The dam is a dark ebony, but definitely hetero ebony.  Her parents were a homo ebony and a standard, I don't have her grandparents.

The sire is a tan TOV (with a tan belly), his parents were a Brown Velvet (out of Hetero-beige, and Beige TOV) and a Homo Ebony (out of two Homo Ebonies).

My understanding is that TOV always shows in a standard, because it's dominant, so that would preclude her being a standard with a dirty belly, right?  Is there such a thing as a black velvet with a dirty belly?

I will try to get a picture up of her.  I'm not sure I know how to post one here, but I'll try.

[ABC Chinchillas]

anything can have a dirty belly especially if it has ebony in it's background..

[Abby W.]

Ok, I think I added to photo to the public album.  This was the best pocture I could get.  Not great, but the kit was getting antsy and I didn't want to keep her away from mom for too long.  Thanks for your help guys!

[ABC Chinchillas]

I have seen ebs that are just ebs that look like him

[Jo Ann]

My understanding is that TOV always shows in a standard, because it's dominant, so that would preclude her being a standard with a dirty belly, right? 

    Nope.  I have a standard and a black velvet that usually give me one black velvet and one standard in each litter.

   Is there such a thing as a black velvet with a dirty belly?

   I have seen many black velvets with a 'dirty belly'.  This is, in most cases, caused by an ebony somewhere in the family history.  Or bad breeding practices.

Any chinchilla can have a 'dirty belly' ... having a 'dirty belly' means the belly is not white like it should be, in a chinchilla that normally has a white belly.   

Having said that, do not confuse a "wrap" with a "dirty belly".  A wrap (also from ebony background) is a chinchilla that has the same color and same shade of color in it's fur all around it ... from the back to the belly it will all be the same color and shade. 

   You can not see the belly of the kit in the picture you posted.

I have seen hetro ebonies that look like that kit on the top ... I have also seen standards that look like the kit ... as well as black velvets that look like the kit.

What ever it ends up being, with the stripes on the paws, if it is not a black velvet, it will, at the least, be a TOV carrier. 

What it is, depends on it's family history and genetics.  It can carry any or all of the genes from the different colors and not show them, but can throw them in a litter.

    Jo Ann

[Abby W.]

Well, that clears things up LOL  I guess I'll just have to wait and see how her color develops as she gets older.   
She definitely has paw stripes though, so I know she has TOV in there somewhere, I'll just have to wait to figure out the rest.  Ebony is a tough color to work with!   

[Jo Ann]

   Very much so.  That's why is is often referred to as a 'wild card'.

Just remember ... anytime you introduce an ebony into a line, there will be 'dirty bellies' show up on down the line, sometimes when you lest expect or want it to.

To me, an ebony should be used only with ...

1) another ebony, to produce more ebonies

2) with a beige, to produce tan wraps, this can take several generations, for a dark, high quality tan wrap

3) with violets, to produce violet wraps, this can take several generations for a dark, high quality violet wrap

4) with sapphires, to produce sapphire wraps, this can take many generations for a high quality sapphire wrap

5) with a large high quality standard to improve the line of the ebony

With #2, #3 & # 4, remember, all kits produced between the original breeding and the final high quality wraps can have and produce "dirty bellied" kits  for generations, as far as the line can go, even if the chin itself does not show the dirty belly.  There could be many standard born to these that would have 'dirty bellies', also.

With what I know now, I would never breed an ebony to a white.

To me, I think, it is a waste to breed a white to an ebony ... that will produce many dirty bellies and off-colored/faded colored kits for generations. 
A good black velvet put with a white can produce many of the same beautiful markings without dirtying the bellies of the kits down through the generations.

   Jo Ann

[Abby W.]

Yes, I try to breed dark bellies to dark bellies, and white bellies to white bellies.  That's why this tan is paired with the ebony.  The female is a beautiful girl from Ritterspach, and the male is very handsome, so their kits should be good-looking as adults, too.  Of course, all kits are adorable    But I am eager to see how they mature.

[Jo Ann]

   It will be interesting to see what it ends up being.     With ebony in both sides of the family, the percentage would lean towards hetero ebony or a standard/ebony carrier.

I just used the Chinchilla Cross Calculator (http://www.silverfallchinchilla.com/genetics/ChinCrossCalculator.aspx)  and there are 20 different colors that could be produced by a pair of chins with ebony, beige and TOV in it's background.   For the Dam list ebony ... for the Sire, list ebony, beige and tov for the results.

   Jo Ann