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[KellyGraham]

A week ago I took my Male 3 year old chin (Stewie) to the vet for not acting right. He was laying on the bottom of his 5 story cage on his side. When I went over to him, he would perk right up and come to me to get his yogurt drop. I still thought this could be a sign of illness. The vet diagnosed Stewie with an upper respiratory illness with harsh lung sounds and a start of an eye infection in his left eye. She put Stewie on Baytril and gentamicin sulfate ophthalmic solution.

Two days after starting the baytril I noticed that Stewie wasn't eating much and not drinking much either. Then, when he didn't take his yogurt drop from me I knew something was wrong. I contacted the Vet and she stated that baytril doesn't normally have the side effect of poor appetite, but to stop the baytril and bring him in. Upon exam she stated that Stewie's lungs sounded better so he didn't need the baytril either. She said that sometimes antibiotics can make chin's intestines stop, so after an x-ray (where all we say was a large gas bubble) she started him on reglan to see if we could get his intestines moving.

Stewie hasn't eaten or drank anything in almost a week now! The vet ordered in OxBow Critical Care recovery food so that I could force feed Stewie. That isn't going soo well. The recovery food is mixed with water and it is still very thick. The powder/hay formula gets stuck in the syringe even when I water it down to almost a 1/10 powder/water solution. Stewie is struggling during the feedings and he spits most of the supplement out onto his fur. He ends up with more on his fur than in his mouth. He is refusing to eat or drink anything. The vet said that he looked so stressed after the feeding (his fur was frazzled and he was breathing heavy and his eyes weren't bright) that she thought maybe we were wasting our time. She gave a torb (for pain) injection and told me to continue the reglan, eye meds, and force feeding if I could.

Stewie is only 3 years old and the vet said that sometimes once they stop eating it's difficult to turn them around. I don't want him to suffer, but I don't want him to die either! Please help! Any advice for force feeding would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Jo Ann]

    WOW      We are having allot of this now!

 Do keep in mind we are not vets, only owners and breeders of chinchillas that we dearly love.  What we tell you is what we have done in the past and found to work, the ultimate decision is yours to make. 

If he is not eating or drinking he is probably going into dehydration and/or is impacted ... neither of which is good. 

Impacted is when the digestive tract stops because it has no flora to keep it moving.  His bowls get stopped up ... This makes the chin think it is full,  and not hungry.  The only thing I know of that works, once a chin that is impacted, and there is no guarantee, is to give him an almond or two (This is the only time you will see me suggesting a nut of any kind for a chinchilla.)  This happened to a friend of mine chinchilla and when it finally pooped it was all stuck together making a 3 and 1/2 inch long poop.

Antibiotics kill bacteria ... that is it's job ... BUT ... it kills all bacteria the good and the bad.  The good bacteria is often referred to a flora.  Flora helps to digest the chinchilla's food and keeps the digestive tract moving ... this is a must for all animals, even humans, but especially so for chinchillas.  Once their digestive tract shuts down, they can go down quickly.

Please read: Don't let the Cure Kill Your Chinchilla at  http://www.geocities.com/jobernstein1949/ACureCanKill.html

Yogurt is good, it can be fed from a spoon or an eyedropper.  Yogurt is a milk product and must be given at least 3 hours before or after the dose of antibiotic.   Mine like strawberry and blueberry yogurt best.  I would give him as much as he wants , especially when given to him for this reason.  Healthfood stores carry acidophiles, which can also be used.

   Jo Ann

[KellyGraham]

Update on Stewie:
     Today I force fed Stewie baby food (prune and apple, as well as banana yogurt) I also syringed in some apple pedialite. He is still getting reglan to hopefully help his intestines start working. I also added a small amount of strawberry/banana juice to his water bottle hoping it would intice him to drink on his own. I also offered a different type of yogurt drop, dried cranberry, dried banana, dried strawberry, and dried apple. He wouldn't touch anything.

Stewie was stressed during the force feeding. He even nibbled on my finger. I think it was a warning that he doesn't appreciate the force feeding. He isn't attempting to eat anything on his own. I did catch him on the 5th floor of his cage today inside and ontop of his wooden house. That was a first in a while.

I understand that chins can have trouble re-starting their intestines once they stop. I cannot undertand why 3 days worth of baytril could have killed all the good bacteria in his intestines though. I should have noticed earlier that he had an upper respiratory, but I'm really bad at listening to chin's lungs. I feel really bad that nothing I do seems to help him. I hope he isn't suffering. I don't know how much longer he can go without eating or drinking.

[Jo Ann]

    Just the fact that he is still moving around to different parts of the cage is encouraging.   

 Is he pooping at all?  If he starts pooping, that is a very good sign.  Sounds crazy, but that's the way it is with chinchillas.     If he is, is it just a few and small and dry, or (hopefully) they still have some moisture in them?

You might want to try the almond.  I got slivered almonds once ... they are very easy to chop up and make tiny, then it could be added to anything you are force feeding him.

A chin's lungs are very tiny and it is hard to hear the breathing/wheezing.  I bought a doctor's stethoscope and use it if any of my little ones show any sign of illness.  It makes it much easier to hear the heart and even the lungs.

Please keep us posted!

   Jo Ann

[DoubleChin]

So sorry to hear about Stewie. I recently had to put my 8 yr old chin Pippin to sleep from an impaction. This was secondary to an ear infection and other things. The baytril had the same effect on him. He stopped eating and was in a lot of pain. Pain injections did not help him.

I am also happy to hear that your guy is still moving around. I was syringe feeding my Pippin strawberry flavored Ensure. He was eating tiny bits of fresh parsley. My vet suggested some kind of enema--I think it was a saline or water flush to try to help move the poop along. It sounds like you have a good exotic vet. I hope that things get better for you and Stewie real soon :-)

[KellyGraham]

 Is he pooping at all?  If he starts pooping, that is a very good sign.  Sounds crazy, but that's the way it is with chinchillas.     If he is, is it just a few and small and dry, or (hopefully) they still have some moisture in them?
[/quote]

He has always been having bowel movements. They are smaller in size and more dry than usual. But I suppose that's what happens when you don't eat or drink for a week.

I thought I caught him sniffing his hay last night, but none if very little was eaten. He did enjoy his dust bath today. He is getting tired of the force feeding, but that is the only thing he is eating.

[KellyGraham]

It sounds like you have a good exotic vet. I hope that things get better for you and Stewie real soon :-)

I have a wonderful exotic vet whom I actually work for as well. Thank you for your concern. It is much appreciated. 

[Jo Ann]

   The more often he poops (has a BM) the better.  Getting fluids in him is very important, as well as nutrition in him.  The more moist the feces (short of diarrhea), the better, at this point.  A chinchilla's system is much more sensitive than most small animals and must be kept going.  Once the system shuts down in a chinchilla, he can go down fast.  Faster than even Guinea pig will do.

 In the wild a chinchilla had to "hide" anything that was wrong with him (be it illness or injury), or he would become easy prey.  This trait has followed the chinchilla through the generations and when we finally realize our little one is sick, he is usually very sick.

Two books I always recommend are "The Joy of Chinchillas" written by Lanny Richie of California Chins (a research center) at www.cachins.org and "After Forty Years ..." by Alice Kline that can be found on the Mutation Chinchilla Breeders Association website at: http://www.mutationchinchillas.com/  .  These are the only two books I recommend that are available to the general public.  I am sure your exotic pet vet has other resources also.  The two books listed give you more information and more correct information than you will get anywhere that I have found.   I loaned my copies to my vet until he could get his own copies. 

   Jo Ann

[KellyGraham]

Update on Stewie:
     I increased his reglan to every 4 hour doses this weekend and it hasn't seemed to help. I am still force feeding banana yogurt baby food and pedialyte apple flavor approx. 36ml daily. I know this isn't enough to sustain him, but he stresses when I force feed and I need to find a happy medium. He is still hiding in his cardboard tube at the bottom of his cage most of the day. Occasionally, I will catch him in other places in his cage, but nothing that would make me say his energy level has increased. His stools vary, but are nothing near normal. He runs from me everytime he knows I'm going to force feed. It was been a week and a half since he has eaten anything on his own.

How do I know when he is suffering? I'm sure that he is uncomfortable and he is definitely stressed from the force feeding, but it's the only thing that is keeping him alive, I'm sure. I don't think there is much else I can do for him. How long can one force feed? I'm torn between the stress of forcefeeding and the inactivity and the will to survive. Someone told me that I should just let him go and see what he does on his own, but not force feeding means dehydration... and eventually death. When is it the right time to humanely euthanize? Will I know?

[KellyGraham]

Update: 09/24/09
     Stewie is finally enjoying the OxBow recovery formula. I have been mixing it with apple flavored pedialyte in order to increase his electrolyte intake. My husband helps me give Stewie 9% subcutaneous fluids twice daily (24cc each time). He is still enjoying his 6cc of banana yogurt flavored baby food as well. I've noticed that his urine is strong smelling, but the vet told me that it's probably because he is still dehydrated. I've just had to clean his cage more often due to this. With all the fluids and OxBow diet that Stewie is receiving, his stools are back to normal. 
     The only medication that Stewie is on at the present time, is reglan in hopes to get his intestines moving again.
The biggest news is that yesterday and today I found 1 sunflower seed cracked open and the insides eaten. I now know that these aren't the best things for chins, however it is an improvement to me because Stewie is going on two weeks without eating willingly.  However, I have noticed that his hay ball is being messed with! I'm not certain that he is eating anything, but his favorite thing to do is sit on his pine shelf and pull all the Timothy hay out of the ball onto the floor of the cage. So, even if he isn't eating the hay, the activity is encouraging. 
     Thank you JoAnne  for all the wonderful tips on force feeding! I actually taped myself during a feeding session so that I could evaluate my technique.  Stewie is now even opening his mouth toward the dropper as if he is enjoying the attention! My husband and I disscussed his progress, and we've decided to wait longer, even though the vet told us it is time to make a decision because she feeels that Stewie isn't going to pull through. We feel like the activity we have noted and the seeds and hay being messed with is encouragning at this point.

[Jo Ann]

   Sounds good, maybe things are looking up.   

I increased his reglan to every 4 hour doses this weekend and it hasn't seemed to help. I am still force feeding banana yogurt baby food and pedialyte apple flavor approx. 36ml daily.

Remember: Yogurt is a milk product.  Antibiotics and milk or milk products work against each other. 
1)  Antibiotics kill all bacteria, the bad and the good. 
2)  The good bacteria is often referred to as flora.  The flora is what keeps the chin's digestive system moving/going properly (from digesting the food and delivering the good parts to different parts of the body all the way to expelling the waste in the form of feces/poop).
3)  With the antibiotics killing the good bacteria, too ... the good bacteria needs to be replenished frequently.  Yogurt and acidophilus are two good means to do this.
4)  Yogurt is a milk product and will counter act the antibiotics unless you give them to your chin at least 2 or 3 hours apart.  By giving your little one the antibiotic every 4 hours and giving him the yogurt, the timing is to close together and they are working against eachother.
5)  IF you have to give the antibiotics every 4 hours, then I would not use the yogurt, I would go to the health food store and purchase some acidophilus and add it to what ever you are feeding him, every time you feed him.  Remember: Once the bottle is opened, it must be kept refrigerated. One of the brand names of acidophilus is Sensi-Dophilus made by Nature's Plus

Every one has their own opinions as to when you should euthanize a living creature, but, it is the caretaker, the one who loves it that has to make that decision and has to live with it.

For me, if one still has the will to live , I'll hang in there as long as they will.  When one has given up, you usually know.  Then, that is the time I know I have to let them go, but as long as they try, I try.

   Jo Ann

[KellyGraham]

1)  Antibiotics kill all bacteria, the bad and the good. 

     I'm not sure what you mean by stating that antibiotics kill all bacteria. Antibiotics kill either gram negative bacteria, gram positive bacteria, or both. So, I think it depends on what antibiotic one is using. I do understand that flora is the good bacteria in your intestines that one needs in order to have a healthy digestive system. I have also never heard that milk products counteract with antibiotics. Where are you getting your research from because I'm interested in reading more about that. 
     Also, relgan is not an antibiotic. It's an antimetic. Stewie isn't on any antibiotics presently.
     I also took your advice and shredded an almond in his food the other day. I picked up some alfalfa hay today to see if I could intice Stewie with something different than the norm. It's very possible that he's eating a little of the timothy hay.  Thank you for your advice on how long you would try. I agree and have decided that I will try until Stewie decides he's tired of trying. Thank you!

[Jo Ann]

    Sorry about that on the reglan, I was thinking of something else that is an antibiotic.   

I'm not sure what you mean by stating that antibiotics kill all bacteria. Antibiotics kill either gram negative bacteria, gram positive bacteria, or both. So, I think it depends on what antibiotic one is using.

True.   

"Why can't you consume dairy products (milk, cheese, yogurt, etc) while on antibiotics? Tetracycline and similar drugs are calcium chelators. When you eat tetracycline and calcium at the same time, some of the tetracycline binds (chelates) to the calcium in your stomach. When it is bound like that, your body can't use it."
http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Drug_Classes/Tetracyclines.htm
 "Probiotic Intestinal Flora
• adverse drug effects: During the course of eliminating disease-causing bacteria, antibiotics such as tetracycline usually also destroy normally-occurring beneficial bacterial flora that form an integral part of the healthy intestinal ecology and assist digestive and immune functions."


On the milk and milk by products and effects it has on antibiotics, such at tetracycline, I was going by what my son's doctor told me when my son was little, and by my old vet, that now lives in Florida, and some articles like the one listed above.   From what I was told, milk will affect some antibiotics, but not all of them.  I have also taken some medications, which include antibiotics , that has one of those little stickers on the side of the bottle that says "Do not take with milk."   

I try to stay away from making those "general statements", but when you make a statement about a specific antibiotic or antibiotics, you have to list them all, and I don't know all of them.   I do not like to make general statements.  But, I will, sometimes, to play it safe.  I did make a general statement when I used the word "all", and should not have done so.  Sorry about that ... this is one of those times I goofed.    



   Jo Ann

[KellyGraham]

   Sorry about that on the reglan, I was thinking of something else that is an antibiotic.   


 I did make a general statement when I used the word "all", and should not have done so.  Sorry about that ... this is one of those times I goofed.    

     Everyone goofs once in a while.  I just didn't want you to think that I was doing something incorrect with Stewie's medications because I truly respect your opinions. Your education in chinchilla care has helped me tremendously! I also wanted other readers to know that reglan wasn't an antibiotic so they wouldn't be afraid to use it. I think it has helped Stewie the most. 

[Debbie.nl.ca]

I am shocked to see Stewie is still going
What a trooper you have there.
As for his droppings getting back to normal, that could take some time.
I've force feed several with teeth problems, and I'd do it every 3-4 months for as little as 2 days or as long as a month.
I nursed one for 6 years like that. Up and down 2-3 times a year his droppings where never normal. Believe me you'll know when enough is enough. They have their ways of telling you.
Do you baby wrap him in a towel when you feed him?
And to make certain items easier to dilute grind them even more. I've used a blender, but l like my mortar and pestle set best. I can grind to a powder and fine as baby powder.
Do keep us posted.