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[Snickerdoodlesmom]

I got snickerdoodle from Petco. What are the chances of him being a purebred standard? And even more importantly, can I breed him safely? The vet said he is healthy so far,  but maybe genetic conditions will emerge?

[GrayRodent]

The biggest problem with not having a pedigree is that you don't know if it could be carrying genes that can result in health problems being passed down to the offspring. Carriers of such genes may never have problems themselves. Or a problem can just crop up unexpectedly later in its life or in the life of one of its siblings that you wouldn't know about. If you bought your chin from a reputable breeder you can report the findings or necropsy and that breeder will be able to trace and correct it. It might not be comforting for you if that happens but after years of doing this breeders get healthier chins and become reputable and the risks are minimized. But now you don't have that safety net.

If Petco got it from a reputable large fur ranch it's likely it was let go because it didn't meet their quality standards which means it shouldn't be bred. Sometimes ranches will breed to get a mutation but instead get a mutation carrier or one that does not have good show qualities as it may take many tries so there's plenty of animals that can be sold as pets from these attempts. It may be fine to try to breed but you don't know if it could be carrying genes for heart defects, malocclusion, or tumors or congenital behavior problems that may crop up unexpectedly. This would be very sad especially if you have bred several litters with this in their line and others like you did the same with the chins they got from you.

Hope this helps.

[lilchinchilla]

The vet is right about the possibility of genetic conditions coming up.

Pedigrees don't even tell you that, if the chins have genetic conditions. A reliable and knowledgeable breeder you can trust will tell you that.

 Pedigrees are good for being able to trace lineage, knowing what genes are present in the lines as far as recessives or dominant, etc... (say you have a standard for example - but seven generations back there is an ebony mentioned in the pedigree...and one day you have an ebony born from that standard chinchilla. That would explain it. As ebony can pop up generations later in the lines.) and of course knowing the background to prevent breeding siblings or relations together.

There are issues to worry about like malocclusion or congenital heart defects, that you might not be aware of, but your chinchilla may carry these genes (with maloccluders, sometimes they don't even present the malo until they are seven years old or older.). All it takes is for you to breed one chin carrying malo with another who carries the gene, and one in every four kits would be maloccluders. 2 in every 4 kits would carry the gene for it (which if they were bred, it would continue an endless cycle of maloccluders if bred to others.).  If you have an actual maloccluder, which you may not find out till they are much older in age, then every kit out of that maloccluder will carry the gene. If you have a maloccluder and breed them with a chin who just carries the gene, then you have a chance of either kits born carrying the gene for malo or kits born that will express genetic malo later in life.

Malocclusion is proven to be recessive which means it can carry for generations too, in a line and resurface later. All it takes is for two malocclusion carriers to be bred together to make it happen.

Fur chewing is another issue, that is genetic and may present itself in the animal at an early age or much later in age.  As far as breeding chins from a pet store, I wouldn't recommend it, since you really don't know what you are breeding for or going to get. Imagine the heart ache of losing your chin to malo at a young age, and then think if you were to sell kits like that to others, how it would feel? It is just to me, an endless cycle of pain and suffering.

There is a lot more to say when it comes to breeding without a pedigree, but I do not want to write a novel! My suggestion, if you choose to breed, is to hook up with a breeder near you that is reputable. They can mentor you and trust me, breeders are more than happy to help new breeders.

As far as even thinking of breeding a pet store chin... I had a couple over yesterday who had a pet store chin they had bought back in December. Poor baby had wet eyes, and when I checked his mouth, I found spurs on his lower teeth. I was sorry to have to tell them that, and I believe they will be scheduling with a vet for an x ray soon. It made me sad to see the owner cry. Her chinchilla is really beautiful, really beautiful (reverse mosaic), but sadly you can't sugar coat or fake when it comes to tooth troubles in chinchillas I am hoping somehow it isn't malo, but I don't have a good feeling with the chin's eyes and teeth being that way. They had thought about breeding too, but I am so glad they chose to keep him as a pet.

[Snickerdoodlesmom]

My intent was not to become a breeder, but to continue the sweet disposition my chinchilla has.
Just to clarify, the vet did not mention the possibility of genetic disorders; rather, I thought of it.

[lilchinchilla]

That's okay!    

I was just trying to explain to you, how those issues can come about through breeding. Sometimes people don't understand how genetics work or how come chinchillas can have malo when their parents may only carry the gene... I am just explaining how that works.

[Snickerdoodlesmom]

So is there any way I can safely breed him?

[lilchinchilla]

Unless you find his breeder and find out if it was a chinchilla with no genetic conditions, I would not chance breeding him. Much of what Gray Rodent said is true. I know around here, most breeders that sell to pet stores, sell chinchillas they cannot sell privately whether it is quality or health problems in the lines.

Which makes sense - why would a breeder sell a chinchilla to Petco for $35 - $40 each, when they can sell the same chinchilla (if it is healthy) for $85.00 - $250 privately whether as a pet or for breeding? The only time a breeder would take the lower price, I would think, is when they cannot sell that chinchilla privately. 

[ABC Chinchillas]

Short answer is no you should not breed your pet store chinchilla. There are so many reasons listed above why you should not. If you want to breed find a reputable breeder and get a breeding pair

[Snickerdoodlesmom]

What kinds of diseases could Snickerdoodle carry? I don't want to breed to sell, I want to breed to keep the kits, and I would most likely be able to afford healthcare for malocclusion, but what else is there?

[GrayRodent]

Here's a list of congenital health problems in chins I have researched. I have read several posts on different forums from people with first hand experience as well as websites for chinchilla rescues and sites for veterinary research.

-Heart defects are not unheard of that cause sudden death at the slightest provocation. This is the reason that one couple decided to breed pet chinchillas because they got two in a row like this from a pet store. I have several unrelated articles from pet owners who have had this happen. They are usually accompanied with heart murmurs that indicate heart valve defects.

-Seizures that are debilitating and cause death and require ongoing medication with no explanation such as vitamin deficiency or diabetes.

-Tumors. I lost my pet rats to tumors. I had 4 over the course of 3 years and decide not to buy any more rats because I didn't have access to a reputable breeder. In fact this is the biggest reason why I am pursuing chinchilla ownership. Had to euthanize two of them. One had seizures from a brain tumor (eye bulging out was the first symptom) and another dragging around a huge tumor that was affecting its mobility. The others died with large palpable tumors.

- Diabetes. Usually leads to cataracts and blindness in chins and causes seizures if not properly managed.

edited to add more details.

[chinclub]

I want to breed to keep the kits

That is an unrealistic idea.  See when you get your chinchilla to bond to a mate they will bond for life.  That means that you will have a very hard time keeping them apart.  So you won't be talking about just one baby.  You will be talking about 1-2 pregnancies a year with the possibility of 1 to 4 babies each time.  You wouldn't be able to keep up with that many chinchillas without selling some.  And if your chinchilla does pass on bad genes that is a lot of vet bills and sick chinchillas.  And if you sell/give away babies and those owners decide to breed then those babies will also be sick.  And where does it end?

As a breeder myself, I understand your want to experience chinchilla birth.  It is beautiful and fun.  However, you need to do the responsible thing and be sure that you are breeding a good healthy pair that will produce generations of healthy chinchillas.

[lilchinchilla]

Not sure where you are located, but health care for malo isn't cheap. I know some people who paid well over seven thousand dollars, on one chinchilla for malo. Most can't stand the suffering, pain and hand feeding that comes with malo, so they put their chinchilla down eventually. I imagine the vet bills could be higher, if they prolong the agony and suffering for the chinchilla.

 Most people who learn about malocclusion, wouldn't want to deal with it. They feel as awful as I feel when they learn how the roots grow into the nasal cavity, eye sockets or brain, over time. I just try to think of something puncturing my eye from the inside or my brain, and ouch, I am fairly sure that would hurt...  

I don't truly know anyone who is okay with breeding chinchillas with that. It's a slow painful death and there is no cure for it, when genetic.

Fur chewing is also another genetic issue. Some people associate it with environment, which it can be, but the fact is the chinchilla has to be predisposed to it, and then the right stresses from the environment, bring it out. With fur chewing, while most chins will chew their fur and only their fur, others can and have chewed through their skin and self mutilated themselves.

 It's not pretty. One pet owner in Vancouver, I knew, had to put her chinchilla down because he chewed through his side and the vet couldn't save him. I've heard of others in the States, having to get their chinchilla's tails amputated to try to curb the self mutilation.  

[Snickerdoodlesmom]

@ lilchinchilla- that post made me nervous, as I have noticed much fur chewing. Nickers doesn't chew for so long; I thought he was just itchy. He uses his hind leg to scratch accessible places, but will chew his belly and tail. He gets weekly dust baths, sometimes twice weekly. Is this fur chewing?

[GrayRodent]

If you see the fur is noticeably shorter after the fur chewing then it's a problem. Otherwise it's normal itching and grooming behavior. In most cases of fur chewing you'll see the patches on the back and around the tail area with guard hairs chewed off. The undercoat is relatively untouched and there will be irregular length patches. There are many pictures of this online if you put it into a search engine.

[lilchinchilla]

Fur chewing has nothing to do with baths. It is genetic, and sometimes chins don't show signs of it till later on in life, some show it right away as babies.
One little bit of stress can bring it out.
Depending how bad the chinchilla can get, they can chew through the skin. Not all chinchillas will chew their skin(many just chew the fur, but some start out with only chewing fur and progress to the skin in time.), but I know of at least two cases where people had chinchilla tails amputated because of the amount of self mutilation going on with their chinchillas, to the point of causing infections and non stop chewing through the skin.

In one case, the owner had to put their chinchilla down because he had chewed through his skin and into his intestines. We had a several paged thread up about it at the time, and when she put her chinchilla down, she was so distraught over the ordeal, she never got another one as a pet again.

Her chin came from a backyard breeder who was breeding rescues and pet store chins btw.

A few photos of fur chewing chinchillas:
http://www.google.ca/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1440&bih=663&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=PmVxt75WZzSXsM:&imgrefurl=http://www.whimsys-menagerie.com/furchewingbarbering.htm&docid=8Eir_ox8qip84M&imgurl=http://whimsys-menagerie.webs.com/BuffaloBillBetter.png&w=744&h=558&ei=33O-T57EPIfhiALX2fmKDg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=302&sig=105274447664436106407&page=2&tbnh=138&tbnw=185&start=21&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:21,i:127&tx=85&ty=87

(I am sure with the photo below, these guys are probably all related...)

http://www.google.ca/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1440&bih=663&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=DhIT0hz-9Lz0gM:&imgrefurl=http://www.whimsys-menagerie.com/furchewingbarbering.htm&docid=8Eir_ox8qip84M&imgurl=http://www.whimsys-menagerie.com/girls-1.jpg&w=930&h=662&ei=33O-T57EPIfhiALX2fmKDg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=422&sig=105274447664436106407&page=3&tbnh=140&tbnw=192&start=46&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:46,i:210&tx=106&ty=90


http://www.rivendellchinchillas.com/furchewing.html

Also just for fun, here's a page with photos on breeding chinchillas too. They are graphic photos, but this shows other aspects of breeding too!

http://www.rdzcranch.webs.com/BreedingChinchillasPage.html