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[GrayRodent]

This thread is a split from the topic "Separation Anxiety" which can be found http://www.chinchillaclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,3764.msg28735.html#msg28735 about a chinchilla, Toki, who presented with what appears to be stress induced diarrhea with the stress being caused by leaving the chin by herself all day.

Although I think the consensus will be that giardia infection is the most likely cause I threw out the idea that the chin could be bored and drinking too much water that might explain the diarrhea.
This highly speculative idea caused some debate so I would like to start a new thread so the experts can have the floor in the original thread on things less speculative. I do hope I've made it clear this was speculative from the start.

This new post is pointed at Xterms:
It appears I did offend you which is not intentional and I do apologize. This is where you left off:

Go ahead, just let me know somehow where to search for the new thread!
And secondly, our little debate here was intended to clear out a possible cause of the illness of the chin. I hope Toki also sees it that way, since we didn't want to destroy.

Off ended.

I totally agree with you here. And also the statement you responded to from me looks accusative in retrospect and I apologize for the bad wording of it.

The reason I wanted to split this off is because I don't want to see back and forth conversation going on in that particular thread now that chinclub, who is an expert, has asked a very important question to Toki's owner. I really don't want to see expert exchange get lost between our jabber on my speculation that might be completely irrelevant.

I know it's not my job to control the flow of threads. I am not a moderator and my intention is certainly not to mislead. I hope you can understand my logic. That is all that was meant so please don't take it personally.

I do disagree with you on the basis of the logic of your argument. I understand your argument to say it is not possible for a chin to drink to the point of getting diarrhea because the natural balance of the chinchilla is maintained by its design.

I know you appeal to evolution but I take this to mean that evolution has brought into existence a good functional design that always maintains the proper water balance through behavioral and physiological means. I do agree that normally it's not a problem because the system is good. I do believe that God designed the system but that's a different topic.

I think functionally we can both see good design in the system and both agree the system is designed for survival in the wild as opposed to existing in captivity.

The logic of the appeal to the system's design to prevent behavioral and fluid balance problems breaks down when we presuppose that and look to the fact that these are domesticated chinchillas living in captivity. There are differences between wild and domestic chinchillas genetically, and also differences in behavior because their environments are so different. We might even say they are living outside of their original design parameters.

I think it is safe to conclude that we might see disorders that result from this that may throw off these kinds of balances and feedback mechanisms. I think the separation anxiety correlating to diarrhea is not a coincidence but a case in point even if it has to do with the physiology of acid and enzyme balances getting thrown off by stress hormones that cause pathogenic bacteria to become a problem.

Having lived around domesticated animals all my life I've seen some pretty strange things which is why I threw that out there. Whether or not chins can drink too much is another matter. A simple Google search will bring you reports of it happening. However in those reports diarrhea is not a symptom but excessive urination. I think that could mean it's absorbed quickly and the fluid balance in the guts stays maintained, at least to prevent diarrhea. So that is evidence against the idea that chinchillas drinking too much can cause diarrhea.

If I have misunderstood your argument please let me know.

[Xterms]

It seems my intentions were what you misunderstood. Absolutely no offence was taken by me, you did not upset or attack or whatever me, we were discussing something. I didn't even think of being offended, so apology is of no use.

And you are absolutely right to start a new thread, since we were off topic there a bit, so really...don't feel any bad.

One of your last statements is the conclusion I have been supporting: evidence against the fact that drinking too much can cause diarrhea.

You are absolutely right about genetics and alteration in domesticated animals, but keep in mind that those ones having mutations in basic physiological occurances do not survive. Neither did in the past, nor will in the future. Water absorbance from intestines and excretion via the urinary system is such a basic function. The intestines are not designed to handle the excess, and only carry the burden when the kidneys have some kind of malfunction, only then will the intake of water influence the fecal outcome. So it's pathological. The normal function is controlled by a set of hormones that usually show minimal sensitivity to stress and such conditions. In stress, diarrhea occurs mainly because of increased intestinal movement, so less time is available for water absorbance in the large intestines. And since the capacity of the stomach is not beyond that of the kidney's excretion rate, vomiting occurs when too much fluid income is present, so it is impossible to physiologically consume so much water that the kidneys would'nt handle.

Now, the above processes are true for humans, but since chins can't vomit, I don't know if they can drink so much that it stays in the guts and leaves the body this way. More physological facts and research must be done before I can either say you're right and water overdose can cause diarrhea, or insist on my statement that it's impossible.

And really, don't apologize to me, this is a normal discussion and you haven't said anything offending, neither in the previous thread we have left.

[GrayRodent]

That's cool. I thought "Off ended" literally meant "offended"!

It is true that I presented evidence against my theory that it is possible for chins to get diarrhea from drinking too much water. I found those articles yesterday. Whether it is possible is beside the point. The point is the logic of your line of argumentation. It is a logic issue as opposed to a scientific one.

Your original article precluded the possibility of it on the grounds that the chinchilla's system is ideal and therefore always maintains an ideal fluid balance inside the intestines.

My argument is that in captivity animals do strange (pathological) things like drink too much.

I will write more but I got to go take my mom's parrot to the vet to get it examined for possible foot problems. Later.

[GrayRodent]

It is true I presented evidence that supports your case to the detriment of mine because I recognize I could very easily be wrong and I thought this information was important.

I have no argument against basic physiological functions being optimal under normal circumstances. I think I'm starting to see that you're focusing in on a biochemical standpoint where absorption rates are pretty much set in stone given x amount of pure substances.

Having had my hands dirty with veterinary care in the past I am forced to see the whole system at work so I'm coming from a systemic viewpoint. The thing is there's two parts to this. One is behavioral the other is physiological. In the case of intestines you also have a bacteriological element that can affect both. However I do agree that if we want to ask the question if simply drinking too much can cause diarrhea physiology is pretty much going to determine what happens afterwards.

The colon although it is important for the absorption of water is only part of the story. In the small intestine there is a higher fluid to solid ratio than optimal. I would think this would increase motility and change the enzyme levels to make digestion less efficient which results in less bacteria working on it so there's less fermentation.  So by the time it gets to the colon you're faced with abnormal conditions that might cause expulsion of liquids. I would think in the form of what we call "squishy poo".

Like you said without further study or reports it's not possible to know exactly what kind of effects this has. So I'm going to stick with at least where I started from and that is I do not know if it's possible but I think possibly it is.

You do seem to want to rule out humans as an example of this but I know it does happen because of experiences I'd rather not document. It goes the same for fluid balance. There was a water drinking contest sponsored by a radio station a couple of years back that made the news. One of the contestants died from water toxicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-207_162-2365259.html So the renal system is good but not foolproof!

In the case of Toki I think it's definitive there was no diarrhea. So I'll have to retract this as a case in point of a systemic feedback issue caused by animals existing in unnatural environments. However it is not unheard of for chins to have giardia issues coinciding with stress.

[Xterms]

That's cool. I thought "Off ended" literally meant "offended"!

Haha! I didn't even notice the similarity when typing down.

It is a logic issue as opposed to a scientific one.

No, it's not. You know where I study from the introduction thread, I'm deeply in these things.

Your original article precluded the possibility of it on the grounds that the chinchilla's system is ideal and therefore always maintains an ideal fluid balance inside the intestines.

The intestines' fluid control has nothing to do with the original problem. As I mentioned it above, occuring diarrhea is based on neural direction (elevated levels of cathecolamines during stress), the main thing is the kidney function and the interstitial fluid level, which have the greates effect on urine excretion. So the fluid level of the intestines can and must vary in normal and even most of abnormal conditions, but has nothing to do with increased fluid intake. Or at least this was my first supposition.

So by the time it gets to the colon you're faced with abnormal conditions that might cause expulsion of liquids. I would think in the form of what we call "squishy poo".

But if water absorption has no difficulties, even the elevated level of water will be able to be absorbed, therefore entering the circulation, and leaving the whole rest work to the kidneys, taking the responsibilty off the colon.

Water intoxication lies entire itself upon the simple process that a local oedema grows in the brain, causing death when not treated. Moreover, your article doesn't even mention diarrhea.

[GrayRodent]

I have carefully re-read everything this time around and I think we have been talking passed each other on a couple of points. Your last post clarified some things for me and it looks like we are pretty much in agreement with most things.
I was going after a logic issue that just was not there because I read some things into your exchanges. I guess I'm bad about doing that and I'll admit it. The water toxicity thing was related to that.

I understand that you are saying that in a healthy intestine and renal system there won't be a problem with absorption rates that control the physical consistency of the contents of the colon even if there are abnormal fluctuations in fluids introduced into the colon and that the absorption rates are dictated by the interstitial fluids. These are regulated by the kidneys which can process all the water necessary to maintain the balance in the colon. And that if the motility of the gut is increased by normal means (such as from stress hormones) it should not be enough to affect the regulation, at least, to cause diarrhea.

My answer to that is I agree for the most part, but I also think there can be really abnormal situations that can throw this off, at least for brief periods of time. There are transit times for substances through the tissues and there is going to be a theoretical limit to how fast liquid is absorbed. There are abnormal variations in the guts' osmotic loads that can occur but sometimes animals can be surprisingly abnormal consuming huge amounts of water in a short time that I think can push it over the edge or trigger secondary causes of diarrhea. Fractions of a percent can have noticeable effects on the feces. The design of chinchilla guts may be somewhat similar to other mammals but I know just by looking at necropsy photographs their intestinal walls are so thin they appear transparent unlike in dogs or humans.

I wish I had access to some better resources but I don't. The best I can up with is a couple of online reports, first hand experiences, and anecdotal evidence correlating excessive water consumption in a day with diarrhea in humans and dogs. I know that this does not link cause and effects. I suspect however that on two counts can be explained as osmotic diarrhea caused by bowel problems, but one account was of an athlete who drank 3 gallons of water a day and had problems when he cut back to 2. Then repeated the results just to see if it was caused by drinking too much water. It is possible there might have been pathology involved (other than that in his head!) but the sheer volume is what strikes me.

Without experimental data it doesn't look like this is really going anywhere, and no, it is not data that I wish to gather! I don't know if you're familiar with the phenomenon but often stressed chins can present with squishy (not liquid) poo. But more often chins are bad about presenting with constipation from stress and their gut motility tends to decrease to the point of GI status if it's bad enough and sometimes (though rarely) it can cause a blockage. I am curious about how you might explain that.

[GrayRodent]

I thought maybe you would have some further insight. Thanks for the chat. The research was interesting but kind of gross!

[Xterms]

Forum posted a little part of my post, so I delelted it and hope I manage to post it entirely:

I'm glad that in the bigger part we get along. BUT you still don't seem to understand what I put the emphasis on. A lot of times. And the proof is this part:

I don't know if you're familiar with the phenomenon but often stressed chins can present with squishy (not liquid) poo. But more often chins are bad about presenting with constipation from stress and their gut motility tends to decrease to the point of GI status if it's bad enough and sometimes (though rarely) it can cause a blockage. I am curious about how you might explain that.

I have said that stress-caused poo loosening and water-excess poo loosening are 2 completely different cases which don't have a single thing in common. You see:
1. stress diarrhea
2. overdrinking diarrhea

2 different things. With no correlations. This was a bit joking example, but the simplest way of telling what I want (and have).

Now what stress causes to the intestines has already been covered by me. The other thing it induces is sympathetic dominance. Now we have to isolate acute stress (like before an exam) and chronic stress (every day stressing because of work/housekeep/family/money leading to burn-out syndrome, lethargy, depression blah blah).

Acute stress unleashes a lot of chemicals leading to symp. dom. (decreased function of guts) and also other cathecolamines leading to diarrhea since they open ion-carriers and channels, unleashing tons of ions in the colon, and ions carry plenty of water with them. Now which state (diarrhea or low function by symp. dom.) will dominate, is variable between living systems.

So, chins go through acute stress and panic when their owners leave or something unusual happens, and whether they have constipation or diarrhea, that will be decided by their body, letting either sympathetic dominance take over control, or not (so the ions rush the colon)

I repeat just in case: stress-caused diarrhea is NOT our topic. Neither does it form the problem of our original discussion.

[GrayRodent]

Let me see if I can get this. As you know by now I can be very dense and sometimes I need help to catch on so please be merciful. I am not a medical student and It's been a while since I've studied physiology but medical science is always something that fascinates me.

I understand that these are two different things and I've pretty much given up on trying to defend my original assertion, that is, that diarrhea can be caused by drinking too much water, because I have reached the limit of my knowledge and resources. I can only suspect it can happen under extreme circumstances and I've finished making my case. Now there's a slight change in subject as I asked your opinion on what causes changes in stool with stressed chinchillas which I am finding informative.

What I didn't catch was the complete role of stress hormones. I recognized that hormones in acute stress increase motility. Now you have pointed out it also leads to excretion of fluid into the lumen on top of that which I think is very interesting. You say that sympathetic dominance comes into play when dealing with acute and chronic stress. Are you saying that acute and chronic stress have two different effects?  When you say "decreased function of the guts" in acute stress what kind of functional effects are occuring? I'm imagining one is decreased motility. Do catecholamines (I'm thinking primarily epinephrine) affect the permeability as well?

[Xterms]

No problem at all, I'm lame in a lot of things so have learnt how to patiently explain since I've also been told useful things in these subjects by patient people. Just please stop being sorry for everything.

I agree that in extreme conditions, overconsumption of water can cause diarrhea. Pathologically, I don't find it beyond the realm of possibility at all.

Acute and chronic stress MUST have different effects, since otherwise stressfully living people would dehydrate by diarrhea in a day or so. But maybe the former one isn't even stress, but rather anxiety. I haven't dug myself deeply in this yet, but will ask more clever acquaintances from 3rd or 4th year.

You are right, sympathetic dominance mainly decreases the motility of the intestines, this is the function I meant, just didn't make it clear, now I say sorry for this.

Cathecolamines in fact change the permeability of the intestinal wall, but for the ions, which rush the lumen, creating hyperosmolarity, thus starting to pump water in the lumen, too, to recover the balance. Permeability for water doesn't change (imo), just for maintaining the balance, more water is required in the colon.

[GrayRodent]

From a clinical standpoint do you know of any diets or treatment that might counteract this aimed at these phenomena? At least theoretically.

[Xterms]

If you think about motility, it can be inhibited by various methods, e.g. opioid-receptor-agonists.

If you mean the ion channels, almost all in the humans can be selectively inhibited, but a far more convenient solution is bonding the excess water (trivial coal tablets) by all viewpoints (cost, speed, side effects, application, interactions).

[GrayRodent]

That is interesting in theory. I wonder how much of the issue is hypertonic conditions in the lumen. I looked up using activated charcoal as a therapy and came across this article by the mayo clinic saying it is ineffective.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR602267

Which leads me to the idea that motility is going to be the dominating factor for most things.

I did find that I've used "opiod-agonists" without even realizing it when I've taken Immodium (Loperamide) on rare occasions when viral infections are suspected. It does work but the potential side effects look horrible. It targets mu opioid peptide receptors and apparently it manages to stay confined to the mesentery. I gather it is because of p-glycoproteins in the epithelium.

[Xterms]

Yes, Imodium is the most commonly taken drug for diarrhea, since it's easy to obtain.

It is interesting that it's said to be ineffective, since it works based on natural processes like osmosis and absorption that can't be altered. I may also call out your attention that sticking to only one reference is often decieving.

[GrayRodent]

I know. Like I said I don't have a lot of resources! Right now all I have is my memory from my high school days (I had taken some patient care tech classes) and regular search engines. If I dig through storage I can get out some of my hopelessly outdated medical textbooks I've collected over the years.

I trust the source being Mayo clinic but don't consider it definitive by any means especially since there's no bibliography there. I take it your sources are contradicting that?