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[iSpi]

I've been posting a lot lately, but I really just want to make sure I'm doing everything I can.

So my chinchilla gave birth (unexpectantly) on November 8th. She had some diarrhea so I took her to the vet who gave me Baytril, Bene Bac, an Simethicone. I believe the Baytril hit her hard, so we took her back where we were told to take her off the Baytril, continue Bene Bac for 2 days, and by then she was already of the Simethicone. We were given Critical Care and we gave that to the mom until we saw that she was eating normally again. Now I realize that after taking her off Critical care (approximately 3-4 days without it) the kit has only gained 1 gram. The mother has been eating hay and pellets but I her water isn't going down much. Is there a way that I could possibly give her water, or make it more appealing? Should I give her a watered down version on Critical Care? What can I give the kit for now? It looked like the kit was nursing, but it is obvious now that the kit is not getting little to nothing from it. I tried to offer the mother water, and she refused. When I offered the kit she tried to drink it, but I took it away from her not knowing if water is okay for a kit so young. I plan on calling the vet early in the morning on the 25th, but I can't find anything anywhere on what I can use as a temporary solution. The kit has been a little moody lately probably from the fact that she is hungry.
I don't know how serious this is, but I don't want to overlook it. I'm trying really hard to do what I can, but it seems like as soon as I tried to do something good a chain of different problems followed.
Any advice as soon as possible would be appreciated. As surprising as this kit was, I'm glad I have her other than her previous owner, and I would like for her to be happy and healthy.

[GrayRodent]

I'm very sorry to hear that. There is certainly a major problem. I have some ideas on what to do but I feel someone with experience will have the best advice.

At this point you will have to keep the dam on critical care for at least a few more days. I know for non-nursing chins that the water content in the critical care is sufficient, although not as much as a healthy chinchilla normally drinks so you might have something there. Syringe feeding straight water is not impossible but it is risky because there is a chance that water can be aspirated into the lungs which is usually fatal if it happens. If you decide to force water be very careful not to aim the syringe towards the throat and only dispense what your chinchilla can swallow. Also dispense the correct amount for her weight to avoid complications like fluid imbalances which can also be fatal.

I also recommend following your veterinarian's instruction on supplementing your kit's diet with critical care at this point. If I'm not mistaken you should see at least a 4 gram per day increase in your kit at this age. Again I'm not an expert but 1g per four days is scary. You may have some serious problems already. A chinchilla that has backed off its water is usually in pretty bad condition.

I highly recommend calling your vet and getting advice as soon as the clinic opens today.
If you can't contact your vet today and can't get any advice from an experienced breeder my recommendation is to give the dam 5 additional cc of water in the critical care mix per feeding. If it's too thin then just feed straight water. A 500g male chinchilla should be getting a total of around 60cc per day including the amount she normally drinks and the amount mixed in with critical care. I imagine your chinchilla will require more but at least aim for 60cc if she is not there.

For the kit follow your vet's instructions on how to feed. If you don't have instructions please let me know and I can look some things up for you. I know that some breeders recommend kitten's milk up to a certain weight. I recommend discussing that with your vet as well.

Another thing that can work for your kit if you have a local chinchilla breeder with a dam that is nursing (and has less than 3 kits) you may be able to use her as a serrugate mother. This method is preferred if you lose the dam as straight hand feeding is not usually successful.

If you do not correct this today there is possibility you can lose both of your chinchillas.

[iSpi]

I appreciate the advice.
This morning, the hay looked wet where she might have peed, but I'm not sure if it was diarrhea. I called the vet and was able to get in at 10 AM.
I went to the vet where the man there checked both the mom and kit. They weighed them both and even said the mom had gained weight (she weighed around 550 this time). The kit had obviously gained weight since the last visit, but I showed them how she had only gained one gram in the last couple days. They checked the mom's nipples and explained that they don't seem to be stimulated and aren't producing much milk. Other than that, the mom seems fine. They felt the kit and said she feels full, and they asked if she had been eating  hay and other foods. I said she had been nibbling on some hay but I see her nursing from the mom often, but apparently nothing is coming from that.

The vet told me to give the kit vegetables like romaine lettuce. He also mentioned apples, blue berries, black berries, and kale but told me to give very little, about pea size amounts. He told me that I should soak pellets in water (I give Oxbow pellets) and try to give that to the kit by putting it in a baby food lid. He said I could also give the kit critical care. Other than this advice, he said they both looked fine. He said if it nothing improves that I should return and to start supplementing milk.

After this I asked why I was given Baytril (he was not the one who gave me this since he was not in that day), and his reply was to help with digestion. I read that Baytril was a pretty harsh medicine and found that answer unsatisfactory. He said when he saw her the next time she was brought in he said to take her off the Baytril (which we did) because her stool was no longer that soft.

I didn't get a single answer that I believe to be true or with reason behind it. Seeing that she was growing considerably until a couple days ago, I don't think that the kit is doing well. She is still active and curious, but her not gaining weight is an issue. I don't know why the vet didn't consider giving her supplement milk, but I feel like he should have at least made it an option.

Are vegetables a good idea at this point? I'm not sure if they have the right nutrition for a kit, and going from the mom's milk to a blueberry seems quite different.
How much Critical Care should I start giving her for now if I should start doing so? She is now 87-88 grams at 18 days old.
Should the mom receive Critical Care as well?

I care for both of their well-being's, but it's just frustrating that the vet seemed to not care and took it lightly after reading that this can be serious if nothing is done.

[GrayRodent]

I recommend you do not feed fruit and vegetables but critcal care is ok. I will look some things up later today.

[GrayRodent]

How accurate is your scale? Are the weights close to the vet's scale? What kind of scale are you using? The vet's findings seem to indicate everything is okay. The nipple thing is strange but the fact the kit nurses often tells me it is getting something. If its stomach is full it should be gaining weight. So I am suspecting there is something wrong with the measurements.
As far as baytril is concerned it is possible the vet suspected a bacterial infection in the intestine considering no parasites were detected. It seems to have worked.

(Note: See following posts. It was not the measurements that were in error.)

[iSpi]

My scale said 88 then switched to 87 when she moved, but the vet's scale said 88, so my scale seems to be okay.
I have a Sharper Image Digital scale that is suppose to be used for weighing food measurements and what not.

(Link leads to the type of scale I have to weigh the kit)

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/sharper-image-reg-digital-food-scale/1017490583

Also I weighed a nickel to see if it was accurate and the scale said 5 grams, which is the correct weight of a nickel. I'm assuming my scale is working just fine.

I just felt the kits belly to see if she seemed full or had nothing in her, but it seemed as if she had something there. She wasn't stuffed feeling, but she definitely had eaten. She also doesn't seem sick or anything (I think I already mentioned this), and her tail is still curled tightly. I heard that was a good sign of good health. She is very vocal still and always making little noises for her mom.

Thank you for all your help. I seem to get paranoid a lot, but I just want to find out how to give the best care I can give.

[GrayRodent]

I'm glad you were able to get the info from the vet.
I looked up your scale but I was unable to find the precision of the scale listed on the site. Because it is incrementing in 1 gram increments I'll assume it has a +/- 1 gram accuracy. Considering it agrees with the other scale I don't think it's the scale. I do understand the difficulty of weighing a live chinchilla so it's possible you were a gram off for one of the measurements.

I looked up some charts today and your kit is in a decent weight range for its age, a little on the high side, from what I can discern, which is a good thing. Like I said, I have no experience here, and I discovered the weight curve is shallower than I expected it would be.
That is also good news. You should be seeing an upwards trend each day. If the weight is the same at the end of the day tomorrow as it was two days ago you should pursue this further. It should be gaining one or two grams a day. Because of the difficulty of getting accurate measurements it may take two full days to see the trend. I recommend you keep logging and comparing. If you don't mind I would like to get a copy of those logs when your chinchilla has reached 300g and I'll be glad to post the results on our forum.

Chinchilla kits are known to be vocal until they are weaned. It is also a good sign they are healthy. If there is a serious problem I doubt the kit would be very active. It is harder to tell with adults but considering your dam has gained weight since the last visit I think she is healthy. As usual watch her daily fecal output to keep tabs on her health.
Chinchillas can consume water at significantly different volumes. Mine will normally consume 30 cc per day but sometimes will consume 60 cc each day. I know because I measure the water level with a centimeter rule and calculate the volume. Because my bottle is close to an ideal cylinder where the level varies it's possible to do that.

If you're concerned about water intake you may want to do the same. If it's a cylindrical water bottle you can use the cylinder formula (pi * r² * h). (Where h is the difference in water level) Considering she was checked out by the vet today and found to be in otherwise good health I doubt you are having problems there. Like I've said, usually when a chin goes off its water, it's really sick. Chins will usually stop eating first.

[iSpi]

I feel more at ease.
The kit does seem really active still, and I weighed her again at around 87-88 still. Her stomach still feels full (maybe even a bit more full from earlier in the day), and she is still bright eyed and curly tailed. Her mom is eating plenty of alfalfa and timothy hay (I give more timothy than alfalfa, but they are both always in there) and she is eating pellets. I'll try to see if I can see how much she is drinking by measuring everything out.
Also, the bottle is easily accessible for the mom, but the kit has to stretch to reach it. I did this on purpose so the kit couldn't drink a lot of water. Should I move it down for the kit, or is it fine? It's a silly question but I'm not sure if it matters or not.

I do appreciate your responses and all the advice. I was having such a hard time finding information so you've been a huge help. I do have the weights of the kit since she was born, so I will have to organize them on a piece of paper when you would like to have a copy.

[GrayRodent]

I think the kit should have access to the water. Just put it in its normal position. It should be accessible some time before the kit is weaned. Chinchillas do not over-consume water.

Have a great Thanksgiving Day.

[iSpi]

I hope you had a good Thanksgiving! Black Friday Chaos begins...

Even though today and tomorrow are busy days, I still have to take care of the kit and the mom.
I weighed the kit today at around 11:25 PM on the 27th, and her weight is still around 87-88 grams. I know I had said that I give alfalfa and timothy hay with pellets (all three by Oxbow), but I haven't really been keeping serious track on exactly how much I give of each. Is it possible that too much alfalfa hay could be harmful? The mother has also been doing her barking noise (I'm not sure why) and it sounds hoarse or raspy. I don't use any perfumes, hair products, or anything with scents in my room where I keep her and the kit.
Again, the kit seems fine. She is still very active and wants to come out when I go over to give them hay and pellets. I haven't been letting the kit run around outside the cage the past couple days knowing that her running around could burn energy that she needs to use to grow. Before, I had let her come out as the mom got to stretch a little, but I never let her get to far from the cage and didn't let playtime for her go more than 10 minutes at most. Should I start feeding Critical Care to her to see if she starts gaining weight through that, or should I look into supplements?

[iSpi]

Also, even though it seems like the kit is active and alert, she seems to be very vocal. Not in the sense that she touches noses with her mom and squeaks, or how she makes happy little noises when cuddling, but she sounds like shes crying at times. Sometimes she sounds like a little puppy whining, or just a little lonely squeaky toy. I don't know how to describe them, but it sounds like she is whining or crying. Maybe these are just noises all kits make at this age, but the fact that she isn't gaining weight as well makes me believe something is wrong.

[GrayRodent]

I had a very nice Thanksgiving day yesterday. My mom is a great cook and we had some excellent gourmet food. My dad was here from his out-of-state work, and my brother's family and grandparents were also attending so it was a pretty big deal.

I think something is wrong too with your chinchillas but I'm not sure what. If you got her from an experienced breeder I strongly recommend asking them for advice as well. Usually we get a lot of feedback from breeders but our forum is slow right now probably because of the busy holidays. I'm not sure what the vocalizations mean but they do seem out of the ordinary. Barking sounds usually mean some kind of alarm or stress call in my experience with adult chins.

Alfalfa hay is actually the ideal hay to use in your situation because it is richer than timothy. There's nothing wrong with feeding straight alfalfa until she is done nursing. Double check your hay to make sure it smells fresh and does not smell damp or moldy. Smell the container you get it out of to make sure it does not smell off.

I would say that if your vet listened to your dam's lung sounds and didn't hear anything you are probably okay with her. Chinchillas have a very raspy squirrel-like call. However if you suspect a respiratory problem of any kind though you may want to have it checked out just in case because it's been my experience on the boards that respiratory infections are rarely survivable unless diagnosed and treated very early. The big symptoms are typically wheezing, runny eyes, drooling and matted fur (on the chest and back), and discharge from the nose. Unfortunately that would mean more baytril, and since she is nursing, and this is her second course of treatment, that can pose a significant risk to the kit. Discuss that with your vet if it comes to that.

I am very concerned that your vet did say there was a problem with milk production and now your kit is not gaining weight. That tells me there has been no improvement in the dam and it's possible she has dried up. Especially if the kit has stopped nursing. Unfortunately sometimes that happens without a discernible cause. You may want to get a second opinion on what the cause might be to make sure it is not dangerous.

It is time to start feeding your kit based on your vet's instructions today. A second opinion might be nice but it still might be the same instructions. I do not know what the correct dosage is for a kit and I'm not going to guess. Everything needs to be exact to prevent damage at this point so follow the instructions you have been given carefully. At this point it is getting dangerous. I recommend discussing this with your vet.

If the dam is eating on its own and is showing no signs of stress (has good fecal output, has not lost weight) feeding her critical care probably won't do any good.

I'm very sorry everything has been so hard for you. I know breeders of chinchillas face these kinds of situations on occasion. I hope all goes well for you.

[iSpi]

Thank you for all the information. I'll see if there are any breeders close to me who I can contact, and if not I'll see if I can reach any breeders who have a lot of experience. I'll call the vet and make another appointment as soon as I can.

Thank you for your concern. I'm just trying to make sure I do everything right.

This question isn't quite for the chinchilla themselves, but you may know something about it.
I had gotten the chinchilla off craigslist where the owner said she was healthy. He said she had kits before as well. I called a few weeks later asking more questions about health and why she might be eating as much as she was (my current chinchilla at the time couldn't even match what she was eating). He said she might be pregnant, but took it back after verbally showing I was a bit frustrated. Going off of what he said throughout the phone call and him not knowing that he gave me a pregnant chinchilla makes me want to see if I can take any action. He has other chinchillas (he has the mother's previous litter and the male she mated with), and even though he may be making sure they have a home and food, going off of the mother I have now, he is not taking very good care of them. If I contacted a place for animal welfare, could they take action?

Right now the mother and kit are what I'm more concerned about of course, but I hate knowing what I do know about his care methods with chinchillas.

[GrayRodent]

I wouldn't make any complaints. Chinchilla breeding is fairly complex. Many times, and I've see it play out with experienced and reputable breeders, complications do occur. And sometimes those complications are fatal and there really isn't anything that can be done about it. When I discuss breeding with would be breeders I am always careful to point out the fact that there are risks that must be accepted and try to discourage people from breeding chinchillas they have an emotional attachment to. Kit mortality rate is higher than you might expect. I've been advised to not fully expect a kit to survive until it is at least two weeks old and there are still no guarantees. Mortality from nursing complications is rare but should should not be ignored. Pregnancy and nursing poses physiological stress that doesn't affect larger animals as much.

The only thing that would be concerning to me is overt neglect, foul conditions, and terribly underweight animals and even then I don't think it's right to get a third party involved unless there's some dispute over ownership or finances. Chinchillas that are neglected usually get sick and die pretty quickly. They can be very fragile and die just from stress in certain situations. A poor or abusive breeder won't last long. Stressed chinchillas will not produce.

Sexing chinchillas can also be difficult and sometimes even experienced breeders get it wrong. Even under normal circumstances chinchillas can come down with parasitic infections, respiratory infections, congenital problems, even when you are doing everything right. It is part of chinchilla ownership and pet ownership that we all may experience on occasion. Breeding, pregnancy, and nursing make it even tougher.

[iSpi]

I've always been an animal lover, and it just seems odd why some people would not research and try their very best to give the best life for their pet they have complete responsibility for. I don't want to ruin someone's life over it, I just find it unfair.

Anyway, about the kit and the mother.
My mother has someone who works for her who owns I believe 3 chinchillas. She said she has raised kits before and has had to supplement milk before. She told my mother she has used kitten milk supplement and it worked just fine. My mom already bought GNC Pets Premium Kitten Milk Replacer Enriched Powder from PetSmart, so we gave the kit some of that. My mom also bought a little bottle and small nipple piece since the syringe could cause the kit to choke or breath in the milk. We just squeezed the bottle and put a little drip on the side of her mouth and let her lick it up. She didn't feel completely full, but she was extremely squirmy and didn't seem to want anymore so we didn't force it. Plus the milk was getting cold. I heard that kitten milk isn't good to use though since it is for a different kind of animal, and that a supplement that involves goat milk is a good choice. Since it was late when I had gotten home from work, we had just used the kitten milk. Should I look into goat milk supplement, and if so, where can I buy some? There is a country type of store nearby that sells a lot of farm supplies, so maybe they have some local farmer who sells goat milk there. Are there stores that sell goats milk like grocery stores? Is it okay that I use the kitten supplement for now until I get goats milk, or will that be more harmful?

(Link is to picture of kit)

http://i.imgur.com/FtfGv6z.jpg

Again, the kit looks alert and still has her tail curled and makes lots of noises when mom grooms her. The picture is from 1:40 AM on November 27th. She was moving around and is stretching to see things across the table, so she seems pretty curious in this picture.