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[hope]

I know occasionally one black velvet can appear in a otherwise pure standard 5 generation pedigree as it has been used to improve the standard by darkening it's coat.
So would you still class that chin as a pure standard & does that mean a white would occasionally be used to lighten a medium standards coat?

[chinclub]

Typically a standard to a standard would be just a standard (although you are right that it is important to know the history because it could come back later on).  In the same manner a standard that has a white parent will still be a standard.  But yes, breeding standards to light colors can lighten your standards, as can breeding to violets.  Its funny how some breeders see genetics.  I know a breeder that will not keep a standard from a beige, EVER!  He says to him they just don't look as pure.  I can't see it, myself.

If you are trying to get a light standard to breed as a good standard you can also breed lighter shades of standard together. 

I don't think people realize enough that not all standards are alike.  My mentor has drilled into my head time and time again that you breed like with like.  Light colored standards are bred to whites and beiges, medium and dark standards are bred to blacks.  In doing this you will notice that the standards (as well as the mutations) you get from the breedings will tend to get darker and lighter accordingly.

[Jo Ann]

I know occasionally one black velvet can appear in a otherwise pure standard 5 generation pedigree as it has been used to improve the standard by darkening it's coat.
So would you still class that chin as a pure standard ....?

No, this chin is a black velvet ... it has just skipped a few generations ... more than likely, if you go back far enough, you will find the black velvet in one or both parent's backgrounds.  The standards have still been carrying the black velvet gene through the generations, just not so that you could see it, they can carry a gene without "showing" it.  Chinchilla can carry/throw genes that are not obvious, but usually show up eventually ... not only color genes, but genes having to do with bone structure, fur quality and health.

does that mean a white would occasionally be used to lighten a medium standards coat?

It could, but as Jamie said:

... yes, breeding standards to light colors can lighten your standards, as can breeding to violets.   My mentor has drilled into my head time and time again that you breed like with like.  Light colored standards are bred to whites and beiges, medium and dark standards are bred to blacks.  In doing this you will notice that the standards (as well as the mutations) you get from the breedings will tend to get darker and lighter accordingly.

I recently had a white mosaic and a medium standard deliver a beautiful black velvet kit.  Checking back into the history of each I found a black velvet in the white mosaic's background and might have been able to find the same in the standard one's background, had I continued to search.
    I also had two tans deliver a beautiful black velvet kit along with a perfect tan kit ... the grandmother on the father's side was a brown velvet, the great great grandfather was a black velvet.   
   Colors/patterns will show back up eventually.  This is why it is so important that we breed for true colors ... breeding with just any good blocky standard gray is not breeding for true colors ... you need to know the family history on the standards also.
 
Jo Ann

[hope]

Jo ann the standard did not produce a black velvet - I bought her as a pure standard from a experienced person & When I looked at the 5 gen pedigree I noticed one of the G.G.G.Parents was a black velvet.
I then queried whether this chin could actually be classed as 'pure standard' & I was told by a very experienced person that the black velvet was there as someone had used it to improve the quality & I was told not to worry about the black velvet being there but technically a 'pure standard' has only 'pure standards' in it's pedigree.
I was then told by another very experienced person that the animal would still be classed as 'pure standard'.
Both of these people have almost 20 years experience each but slightly differing views.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

I've had this discussion many a times, and still get different replies.
I was told by one that a standard is a standard no matter what it came from.
Some believe it's the true color and will show up in most/many colored pairings as the gene reverts back. They still consider it a true standard.
I don't see it like that in my breeding.
Standards from mutation pairings don't have the same look as a true standard. Meaning nothing but grays in their back grounds.
Though I have seen some very nice animals from such pairings the gray seems different.
They don't have as much black in their coats, not much barring, more of a muted gray.
Their bellies are so white and half way up the paws and legs are very white.
While my nice trues standrads have much darker backs and heads, with very pronounced markings, and paw stripes.
I don't use the mutation grays in my breeding.

[Jo Ann]

I know occasionally one black velvet can appear in a otherwise pure standard 5 generation pedigree as it has been used to improve the standard by darkening it's coat.
So would you still class that chin as a pure standard & does that mean a white would occasionally be used to lighten a medium standards coat?

OK, I misunderstood, or did not read it correctly, or we are saying the same thing in a different way.

Question:
(1)  By "pure", according to the standard you speak of, only grays have been produced by all siblings, in that direct line, for 5 generations, correct?

(2)  Are you saying if two standard gray chinchillas that are "pure", produce a kit that looks like a black velvet, that it would not be called a black velvet, but would be called a standard gray, even though it looks like a black velvet?

(3) OR Are you saying if two standard grays produce a black velvet kit, it would prove that they are not pure standards?

   I'm kinda confused at this point, by the way it was stated.   

 
Jo Ann
 

[hope]

I have had a look & can see what you mean & what I was trying to say was I bought a pure standard chin from someone & when I looked at her pedigree I noticed the G.G.G.Sire was a black velvet & all the other chins were standard.
I then wondered if the standard chin I bought could actually be classed as pure standard  with having a black velvet in the background & was told no by one very expereinced person & yes by another equally experienced person.
I was also told the Black velvet was used on purpose to improve the veiling & wondered whether someone wanting to breed medium standards might start off with one white chin & one pure standard to lighten the coats of future generations.

[Jo Ann]

As I understand it, their are varring shades of gray in a standard gray ... I have seen this at many shows and within my own herd.  Judges even divide them into classes of light, medium and dark standard gray when judging them.  With the multiple mutation colors we now have, I am sure the grays born to mutation colored parents will affect the shade of the gray because of the genes ... if that occurs naturally, as in the wild, I do not know.  I would think it possible, but not normal, with the mix-match of genes from different herds.

     Different people/breeders have their own practices when it comes to breeding a gray back with a mutation color chinchilla.  There's basically three ways I have been told ... which one used, is up to the breeder.

(1)  Some breeders will use only a "pure" standard gray to put with any mutation color, because the pure standard gray would usually have better genes with little or no chance of another color showing up.  {the meaning of Pure will often have different requirements with different people/breeders.  Some say 5 generations and I have also been told as high as 16 generations.}  It depends on who you talk to.  This, to me, is the best practice.

(2)  Some will breed a standard gray comming from a mutation colored chinchilla parent (for instance) standard gray kit that came from a standard and a black velvet to a black velvet to try to increase the odds of having a larger % of chances to have more black velvet kits ... because this standard kit is carrying black velvet genes.  As I understand it, any standards born to this pair would also be standard gray/black velvet carrier and usually have darker gray fur.  The same should work with whites, or so I have been told.

    Another example of this is the Violet chinchillas.   You put a 'pure' Violet with a standard gray/violet carrier (one parent a violet) to produce both standard gray/violet carriers and 'pure' violet kits.  If you put a "pure" standard gray with a pure violet, only violet carriers will be produced.  If you put a standard gray/violet carrier next to a regular standard gray, the influence of the violet genes is usually obvious.

    In short, if it carries a certain gene, eventually, with the right pairing, that gene will "show up" again, somewhere down the line in a future kit. This practice, in my opinion, should only be done by a breeder that has the knowledge to do it properly.
 
(3)  Some will breed any standard gray, regardless of the family background, to any mutation color chinchilla and take what they end-up with.   This practice is possibly adding different mutation colors with others mutation colors, to the same chinchilla, even if they are not visible.  Not good, in my opinion!

     What quality you get is determined, usually, by the quality you use.  It is to your advantage to breed to improve what you have, not take it down by putting the wrong animals together.  If you are not sure what should be put together, consult a good breeder with lots of experience, knowledge and a good name in the chinchilla community ... or someone that has a good background in genetics.

 
Jo Ann

[hope]

At the moment I am most interested in producing the best quality standards that I can.
I do understand & agree that if I wanted to breed a black velvet I would  choose to put it to a standard with black velvet in the background & with violet being recessive I would need to put violet to standard violet carrier anyway to be able to be able to produce a violet.
I do understand the basics of genetics which is why to me a 'pure standard' should really only have 'pure standards' in the background & I found it interesting that very experienced people had differing views on it.

[Debbie.nl.ca]

I do understand the basics of genetics which is why to me a 'pure standard' should really only have 'pure standards' in the background & I found it interesting that very experienced people had differing views on it.

Me too hope, amazing isn't it, so many rights.

[Jo Ann]

I do understand the basics of genetics which is why to me a 'pure standard' should really only have 'pure standards' in the background & I found it interesting that very experienced people had differing views on it.

    I agree, also ... but ... you have to keep in mind ... most likely, only the wild chinchillas are the ones that could be guaranteed as being 100% pure standard gray,without question, at this time.

   The original chinchillas brought to the U.S. were in the 1920s ... that is about 85 years ago ... in the meantime ... and over the last 85 years, man has been trying to manipulate the breeding to produce the mutation colors we have today.

     Their differing views may be out of necessity, not reality. 

    Only a breeder that has been around for 50+ years and was breeding ONLY standard gray chinchillas (Or someone that got them from such a breeder) and continued the same practice would be considered "pure" standard gray in reality.

     Again, just my opinion and way of reasoning.   

 
Jo Ann