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[Abby W.]

My ebony female, Cybil, just delivered two kits, a beige male, and a female that is mostly white with dark gray/black markings on her face and back.  I am not sure whether this girl is a white ebony or a mosaic.  The father is a pink white, so both colors are possible.  Does anyone know how to tell the difference?

I would post pics but I made the tragic mistake of loaning the camera to my brother, who seems to have "borrowed" it permanently 

Thanks ahead of time for your help!

[QTPie61282]

I believe it would be a White Ebony because if one of the parents is Ebony, then the ebony gene will show up in the kit.  It cant be a standard x white mosaic because the ebony gene would show over that.  But this is only if the mom is ebony, hetero or homo.
If the mom was a standard then it would be a regular mosaic.  but since she is ebony, its a white ebony mosaic.  make sense?   

[Abby W.]

I think I understand what you are saying...the kit obviosuly got the white from her father, since her mother does not carry any white...but her mother is  hetero-ebony, so couldn't she have gotten either the standard OR the ebony from her mother?  I checked Silverfall and it said that either color was possible...
I am so confused....

[Jo Ann]

I believe QTPie explained it very well.

Always remember, when using a calculator, it is only as good as the information the person is putting into it. 
If you do not give all the correct  information, it can not give you a correct answer.

But, let's go back to basics, I helped you with, when you first started out ...

The Pink White father has White, Beige and Standard Gray in it's background.
Therefore: it will/can throw any one of these to the kits, + anything else that may be in his background.

The Ebony carries the ebony gene and will/can throw that, + anything else that may be in it's background. 

A chinchilla may be carrying a gene that is not visible, but, can pass it on to future generations, if thrown, it will show up sometime, in future generations.

Ebony is one of the genes that has a tendency to show up frequently, whether you want it to or not.

Carrying the ebony gene, even if it is not visible, has a tendency to give the look of a "dirty" belly in those chinchillas that should have a pure white belly.  (IE: Should this kit be paired with a white or a standard, it could produce a kit standard kit with a dirty looking belly ... very undesirable ... pet quality only!)

The ebony of the female parent added to the beige gene of the pink white father, can produce a tan or pastel, or a beige or a beige with a dirty-looking belly.

This is why it is very important to know the history of your chinchillas as far back as possible. 
You do not want to mix any more colors in the same pairing than absolutely necessary. 
The more you mix, the more likely you will have a genetically weaker chinchilla.

More than likely, you have a white/ebony, or white/ebony carrier. 

The black, that shows in the kits when young, can fade away, but they will still be carrying the ebony gene, and it can be thrown to a future kit.

Note: To anyone purchasing a white with black markings,
this does not mean it is definitely a white ebony. 
The same markings are possible by crossing a white with a black velvet,
which would make it a white/black velvet.
A much less expensive,
but often just as pretty chinchilla. 

Always know the background on your chinchilla!

Jo Ann

[chinclub]

I think people get confused with ebony because for awhile it was considered either homo or hetero as   with other colors, however, over the years we have learned that ebony isn't really as cut and dry as other colors. For example you must have 2 beige parents to get a homo beige baby.  It would receive one beige gene from each parent making it homo beige.  This is not the case with ebony.  I have found within my own herd that once there is ebony in the background you can assume all offspring will carry that ebony gene.  Before people thought that you had to breed two ebony parents together to create a homo ebony that would be solid black (ie having 2 ebony genes)
We now know that you can get a solid ebony chinchilla from a pairing of 1 ebony chinchilla to a non ebony chinchilla.  I have even managed to get a solid ebony chinchilla from a med ebony (what used to be called hetero ebony) to a full standard.
I have also had white belly babies born from ebonies that were then bred to non ebony chinchillas and they produced dark ebony babies.
Now most breeders have gotten away from using hetero and homo with regard to ebony.  Instead they are considered light, med, and dark just as you would describe a standard.

[Abby W.]

OK, all of that makes a lot more sense.  I had, apparently mistakenly, been treating ebony the same as any other mutation.  I haven't done a lot of work with the ebonies, most of my pairings have been with whites, beiges, or violets.  I think I am going to need to do a little homework before working with ebonies further. 

Does anyone have any reading they can recommend?  Thanks again!

[QTPie61282]

But I think you still can get solid ebonies from two ebony parents (hetero) since they both have the gene, then they can produce homo or hetero.  Am I wrong?  I understand what you mean by pairing a hetero eb with a standard and getting solid ebony babies.  Ive just never seen it.  But maybe it will have to be explained better to me because If the standard doesnt carry the ebony gene then how can it pass on the ebony gene to the offspring in order to make it a solid (Homo) Ebony?  Both parents would have to have the gene, showing in its phenotype or not.
 Jo Ann maybe you can clarify it for me.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  I also need more experience with ebonies.  I am waiting right now to pair two medium ebonies together.  I have their cages next to each other and wont be pairing them until the end of May early June.

But I do agree with you, if the parent has ebony than it most likely will be a white ebony.  that was how I always thought of it anyway.  I was told that the ebony gene shows up almost everytime in the phenotypes.

[chinclub]

That's just it, an solid ebony isn't a homo ebony.  Ebony is a cumulative gene. An ebony can be light, med, or dark and will still throw light, med, and dark babies even when bred to a standard ( non ebony) mate.

[Abby W.]

So, a homo ebony is always a solid shiny black, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every
solid shiny black chin is a homo ebony, right?

[chinclub]

sorry I meant to say its an accumulative gene

[QTPie61282]

No, I understand that.  I have two medium ebonies, hetero ebonies.  I thought ALL Solid Shiny Black ebonies were Homo Ebonies.  Both genes is what makes them all the same black (not the medium, light or whatever).  If the chin is all one shade of black, nice and shiny, then it is a Homo Ebony.
A chin with the ebony gene (Hetero) will throw the gene either Light, Medium or Dark.  But there will always be a gray belly, its just a different shade but its never as dark as the Homo ebonies bellies which are the exact same color as the rest of its body.  In a dark Ebony (hetero) you can distinguish the veiling on the sides faintly but still a difference in shade.

[Billydkd]

Ebonies can range from very shiny black to an animal that looks almost like a standard.  With Ebonies you "Don't" use Hetero or Homo anymore. you can have light, Medium,Dark or Extra Dark.  Just like standards you never use homo or hetero in standards you just color them as light, med, dark, extra dark.

[QTPie61282]

Wouldnt it matter to the pedigree or something purchasing a chin to know that it is a Homozygous or Hetero?  What if they us it for breeding and would need to know what it is?  I feel like its leaving out important infor if we dont say homo or heter.  dark light and medium I understand but that should be just classing it by shade not genotype.

[chinclub]

Billy makes a good point.  You don't buy a Homo or a Hetero Standard...Ebony is just the same. Black Velvet and white are also colors that don't come in Homo or Hetero.  The chinchilla either carries the gene or it doesn't. Some Velvets have a light veiling while others are jet black all the way down to the pure white belly.  Some ebonies are jet black while others look more like standards with a grey belly.

When you look at a standard breeding program you can darken the standard babies by breeding to darker colored standards as with ebony you can darken the ebony offspring by breeding to other dark ebonies.

 With all chinchillas you should get a pedigree that shows the history of the animal you purchase.

[Billydkd]

See you are stuck in this box, they don't use homo or hetero anymore on ebony. Not even at shows.  only light to extra dark. you tell me its a homo ebony i have no clue what your talking about, step out of the box use light to extra dark. i checked all my peds on my ebonies none have hetero or homo on them.